Help with Luke 16:19-31 and Purgatory

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Okay…trying to defend Purgatory and a search of this forum turned up this text as proof of the existence of Purgatory. The dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God. Those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. Hence, the rich man is in purgatory.

This sounds like a great text to use, but upon further reading of the text, I’m perplexed by verse 26, which refers to the great chasm between Abraham and the rich man that was established to prevent anyone from crossing either way. Sooooo, if Lazarus is with Abraham awaiting the opening of heaven by Christ, where is the rich man? If the chasm prevents him from joining Abraham and Lazarus, how can he be in purgatory, which is a temporary state leading to heaven?

I’m sure this is not as difficult as I am making it. Please enlighten me!

Kathy
 
KathyA said:
Okay…trying to defend Purgatory and a search of this forum turned up this text as proof of the existence of Purgatory. The dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God. Those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. Hence, the rich man is in purgatory.

This sounds like a great text to use, but upon further reading of the text, I’m perplexed by verse 26, which refers to the great chasm between Abraham and the rich man that was established to prevent anyone from crossing either way. Sooooo, if Lazarus is with Abraham awaiting the opening of heaven by Christ, where is the rich man? If the chasm prevents him from joining Abraham and Lazarus, how can he be in purgatory, which is a temporary state leading to heaven?

I’m sure this is not as difficult as I am making it. Please enlighten me!

Kathy
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I do not believe the rich man was in Purgatory. He was in Hell. The chasm is the gulf between Purgatory and Hell. SOmeone correct me if I am wrong.
 
CWBetts said:
I do not believe the rich man was in Purgatory. He was in Hell. The chasm is the gulf between Purgatory and Hell. SOmeone correct me if I am wrong.
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That’s what I thought too. However, if you reason that the rich man felt compassion and compassion is not possible in hell, then where is he?

It’s a head-scratcher to me…

Kathy
 
KathyA said:
Okay…trying to defend Purgatory and a search of this forum turned up this text as proof of the existence of Purgatory. The dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God. Those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. Hence, the rich man is in purgatory.

This sounds like a great text to use, but upon further reading of the text, I’m perplexed by verse 26, which refers to the great chasm between Abraham and the rich man that was established to prevent anyone from crossing either way. Sooooo, if Lazarus is with Abraham awaiting the opening of heaven by Christ, where is the rich man? If the chasm prevents him from joining Abraham and Lazarus, how can he be in purgatory, which is a temporary state leading to heaven?

I’m sure this is not as difficult as I am making it. Please enlighten me!

Kathy
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I would offer first that it’s more important (imho) to consider this story in light of what it tells us about Jesus’ attitudes regarding the rich and the poor. That is an ongoing theme we find in Luke.

Second, we have to remember that ancient conceptions of heaven/hell etc. were different than ours. There was no comparable idea, at the time, to the Christian purgatory that would develop in later centuries. The “netherworld” or place of the dead may or may not have had the same connotation that we have with Hell (i.e. it didn’t necessarily mean eternal punishment, or absence from God). It probably meant some different things to different people. Even the Jews of the time (and remember the first Christians were all Jews) had different ideas about life after death, heaven and hell, etc.

This might not be everything you’re looking for but I hope it helps. We can’t prove nor disprove purgatory from this one story.
 
Several years ago I found a fascinating solution to this dilemma about the rich man in hell seeming to show compassion for his brothers. It’s in the Dialogue of Saint Catherine of Siena. Our Lord told St. Catherine:

…[the pains of the eternally lost] always increase, especially the pains of those who have been the cause of damnation to others, as that rich man, who was damned, demonstrated to you when he begged the favor that Lazarus might go to his brothers, who were in the world, to tell them of his pains. This, certainly, he did not do out of love or compassion for his brothers, for he was deprived of love and could not desire good, either for My honor or their salvation, because, as I have already told you, the damned souls cannot do any good to their neighbor…But why then did he do it? He did it because he was the eldest, and had nourished them up in the same miseries in which he had lived, so that he was the cause of their damnation, and he saw pain increased to himself, on account of their damnation when they should arrive in torment together with him…

So this text actually is demonstrating the danger of giving bad example to others during your life. Interestingly, the story comes at the end of chapter 16 of the Gospel of Luke. The first line of chapter 17 is: "He said to his disciples, ‘Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they come.’ " It seems this verse in Luke 17 is the main moral of the story.

The Dialogue of Saint Catherine of Siena is available online at: ccel.org/ccel/catherine/dialog.txt
 
I think rather than Purgatory, this may well be an excellent proof text on why “Sola Scriptura” doesn’t work. We need the guidance of the Curch when reading difficult passages such as this.
 
shom-bms said:
Interestingly, the story comes at the end of chapter 16 of the Gospel of Luke. The first line of chapter 17 is: "He said to his disciples, ‘Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they come.’ " It seems this verse in Luke 17 is the main moral of the story.
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Never forget that the chapter and verse numbers are not part of the original! 🙂

Nice bit from St. Catherine, btw. Thank you!
 
Just to offer a little (name removed by moderator)ut - the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a true story, not a parable (Jesus used a proper name, which He never does with parables). We see in verse 22 of the Douay Rheims that the rich man was buried in hell. In other versions, verse 23 shows the rich man in hell. We can also know this isn’t purgatory because Abraham never tells him that he would eventually come over to his side (I would also mention that there is no indication that his family could offer prayers or sacrifices to ease his suffering).

BTW - I practice Sola Scriptura.
 
KathyA said:
Okay…trying to defend Purgatory and a search of this forum turned up this text as proof of the existence of Purgatory. The dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God. Those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. Hence, the rich man is in purgatory.

This sounds like a great text to use, but upon further reading of the text, I’m perplexed by verse 26, which refers to the great chasm between Abraham and the rich man that was established to prevent anyone from crossing either way. Sooooo, if Lazarus is with Abraham awaiting the opening of heaven by Christ, where is the rich man? If the chasm prevents him from joining Abraham and Lazarus, how can he be in purgatory, which is a temporary state leading to heaven?

I’m sure this is not as difficult as I am making it. Please enlighten me!

Kathy
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1 Corinthians 3:10-15.
 
Peter Dawson:
1 Corinthians 3:10-15.
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This isn’t a very good reference for purgatory. Notice, verse 13-15 reads, “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” (emphasis mine) It is clear that our works will be tried by fire. How does this indicate purgatory?
 
Cachonga said:
This isn’t a very good reference for purgatory. Notice, verse 13-15 reads, “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” (emphasis mine) It is clear that our works will be tried by fire. How does this indicate purgatory?
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Our work is what we accomplish in this life. If it not pure (Holy) it will be destroyed. Remember nothing impure can enter Heaven. So yes this is a good passage to defend Purgatory.
 
Cachonga said:
This isn’t a very good reference for purgatory. Notice, verse 13-15 reads, “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” (emphasis mine) It is clear that our works will be tried by fire. How does this indicate purgatory?
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Purgatory judges a man’s works, not his soul on the Great Question. If one qualifies for Purgatory, the Great Question is already resolved – he is saved.
 
CWBetts said:
Our work is what we accomplish in this life. If it not pure (Holy) it will be destroyed. Remember nothing impure can enter Heaven. So yes this is a good passage to defend Purgatory.
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I would agree completely - in fact I once sat quietly in a mixed-denomination Bible study and watched a group of evangelical women reconstruct the doctrine of Purgatory (sans the name) from their work on the Corinthians passage.
 
So what goes to purgatory, your soul or your works? There is no indication that WE are touched by the fire, just our works. How does 1 Cor 3:10-15 make a case for purgatory? How does one “qualify for purgatory”? What is your scriptural basis for this? I would suggest this deals more with our rewards than any “cleansing”.
 
Cachonga said:
So what goes to purgatory, your soul or your works? There is no indication that WE are touched by the fire, just our works. How does 1 Cor 3:10-15 make a case for purgatory? How does one “qualify for purgatory”? What is your scriptural basis for this? I would suggest this deals more with our rewards than any “cleansing”.
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We are judged according to our works. Purgatory is for the believer who has no mortal sin on his/her soul, but still has unconfessed venial sin. And the Scriptures are not our sole rule of faith. The Scriptures let us know that ther is purging process, but it is Sacred Tradition and the MAgesterium that fills in the blanks
 
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CWBetts:
We are judged according to our works. Purgatory is for the believer who has no mortal sin on his/her soul, but still has unconfessed venial sin. And the Scriptures are not our sole rule of faith. The Scriptures let us know that ther is purging process, but it is Sacred Tradition and the MAgesterium that fills in the blanks
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So you’re saying that we will go through the fire with our works? Is the judgment of my works the “purging process”? I don’t understand how having my works judged relates to me “paying” for my unconfessed “venial” sins. (I don’t even see the distinction between cardinal and venial sins in scripture, only between sins committed with knowledge and those unknown, but that’s another topic.)
 
Cachonga said:
So you’re saying that we will go through the fire with our works? Is the judgment of my works the “purging process”? I don’t understand how having my works judged relates to me “paying” for my unconfessed “venial” sins. (I don’t even see the distinction between cardinal and venial sins in scripture, only between sins committed with knowledge and those unknown, but that’s another topic.)
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Nothing impure can enter Heaven. We are judged by our works. Here is a question for you. Jesus “preached to spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:19) where is this place? It is neither Heaven, nor Hell. (for reference, see 1 John 5:16-17 and John 19:11 for the mortal/venial sin question)
 
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CWBetts:
Nothing impure can enter Heaven. We are judged by our works. Here is a question for you. Jesus “preached to spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:19) where is this place? It is neither Heaven, nor Hell. (for reference, see 1 John 5:16-17 and John 19:11 for the mortal/venial sin question)
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2 Peter 2:4 says, “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment:” When we look at the (true) story of Lazarus and the rich man, we notice that the rich man was in hell. You claim this “prison” is neither Heaven nor Hell, yet the Scriptures say otherwise.

What is a “sin unto death”? Luke 12:10 says, “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but to him that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven.” It would appear that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the “sin unto death”.

In John 19:11, Jesus tells Pilate that his sin is not as great, not that it’s a venial sin, but because He was handed over by those who SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. Remember, Pilate wanted to free Jesus, but the crowd (stirred up by the religious leaders) demanded His crucifixion. Pilate, in essence, had very little choice.
 
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