Help with "Original Sin" Argument

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NotWorthy

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I’m having a “discussion” with a friend from the Church of Christ, and our current topic is infant Baptism. I understand that I can get nowhere with him on this subject until I can convey the concept of original sin to him. I’ve seen a few references to the NT as proofs (1 Cor. 15:22, 1 Cor. 7:14, 12:13), but they don’t seem to blow me away. Anybody got any advice?

Thanks!

Until then, I’m NotWorthy.
 
two simple arguments you can use(i dont have the scripture to back it up, but its easy enough to find) is this:

1 Jesus said, “do not with hold the children from me”, obviously he wasnt talking one time
2 "They baptised entire households, not just the adults, leaving the children untill they were old enough

and just a side note, bringing someone to Jesus is not dedicating them, it is baptising them
 
As far as quotes go, this is helpful.

Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

The reason everyone is to be baptized – for==becuase – everyone … including children is promised something.

Are you wishing to show that there is orignial sin? or what?
The passages in 1Cor15 are the traditional texts showing that death passes on all becase of Adam’s sin, (and hence the loss of heaven without furthur promise.)

What translation are you using of the passage, and how does it read, and why do you need to be ‘blown away’ by original sin?
 
Infant baptism is getting ahead of yourself. You need to first establish what the Sacrament of Baptism does. It washes away sins. As long as your friend holds the Protestant view that baptism is merely a public show, a formality, then he will disregard (as he should) any justification for infant baptism.

Fundamentals first.
 
In response to the last two posts:

What am I looking for to “blow me away”? So many of our other Catholic “inventions” (as my friend puts it) are so easy to explain by showing some early church teachings or scriptural references. When I compile them together to form my argument, they “blow me away”! What I mean is, for years I’ve been a cradle Catholic, just going through the motions at mass and in my life. Now that I’m studying my faith, and learning why we believe what we believe, it literally blows me away. The Catholic Faith is such a beautiful thing!!! I feel I’ve got all the pieces in a mosaic (or jigsaw puzzle) and as I learn to understand another facet of our faith, I hear a “snap” as the piece fits into the rest of the mosaic (or puzzle). The problem is that original sin (although I have no problem believing it) is mostly implied to my legalistic friend (like most Church of Christ people) and so he doesn’t accept the implication.

Regarding what baptism does, he does believe it wipes away our sins and that it’s not just a formality. Yes, I was suprised by this, as I thought they didn’t feel it was efficacious. But he doesn’t believe in Original Sin, so why should children be baptized. Again, this is the crux of the whole argument. With Original Sin, you MUST baptize children. Without Original Sin, infant baptism is unnecessary.

Thanks again for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

Once again, I’m NotWorthy
 
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NotWorthy:
. But he doesn’t believe in Original Sin, so why should children be baptized. Again, this is the crux of the whole argument. With Original Sin, you MUST baptize children. Without Original Sin, infant baptism is unnecessary.
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Dear NotWorthy,

I’m confused. Original Sin proves we need Jesus. It proves we cannot reach God, on our own merit. We reach God The Father, through Jesus Christ’s reversing the death effect of Original Sin. If not to cure Original Sin, why does your friend think we need the Messiah?

We are born upside down, our backs turned away from God, because of the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. Baptism sets us upright, in the sight of God and man and gives us grace and protection of our souls, through The Holy Spirit. We acknowledge our need for Divine help, by Baptizing our babies, who are not born with the ability to reason.

I’m very thankful to God and my parents, that He allowed, and they asked for, my infant Baptism. In the years I chose to depart from Him, His grace kept me alive. Actually, I truly believe it was His Mother’s care and hand, that reached down into the death pit my putrid self was in, at the moment I reached toward Him and cried out one lonely night in despair, “Jesus! Help me.”

Praise God for hearing the voice of the hardest of hearts, at the moment of their repentance. Praise God for rescuing the worst of sinners; those who are most in need and deserving, of His great mercy. May they be jewels in His crown of glory.

John Paull II and St. Faustina, pray for us!

Peace,
Elizabeth
 
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned. 13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. He is a prototype of the Coming One. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by the one man’s trespass the many died, how much more have the grace of God and the gift overflowed to the many by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the gift is not like the one man’s sin, because from one sin came the judgment, resulting in condemnation, but from many trespasses came the gift, resulting in justification. 17 Since by the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone. 19 For just as through one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
 
Elizabeth,
You’ve got to understand, I’m dealing with a person who tells me “for no man inherits the sin of their parents” as proof. I’m dealing with a person who feels that good people who die are in a “waiting room” anticipating the Second Coming of Jesus to open up heaven to them. There’s also a “waiting room” for bad people who will go to hell during the Second Coming. This same person could not believe that I didn’t believe the same thing!!! I’m keeping that discussion on hold and sticking to infant baptism. So unless “Original Sin” is not spelled out on a marquee with neon signs, or of course if Alexander Campbell dreamed it up on the spot to justify starting a new church, then THEY DON’T BELIEVE IT!

BTW, Martino, great post!!! That did give me some good information to pass on.

NotWorthy
 
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NotWorthy:
I’m dealing with a person who tells me “for no man inherits the sin of their parents” as proof.
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NotWorthy,

Does he beleive “sola scriptora”? Why do you let him use the above quote as proof? Is that written in scripture somewhere I don’t know about? Aren’t we told the sins of the parents are visited on the sins of the children, in scripture? I can’t buy his idea of proof because I’ve seen too many times when children commit similar sins to their parents. Sorry I can’t be of more help.

Elizabeth
 
Elizabeth,
Yes he does believe in Sola Scriptura (Well of course he does…, doesn’t everybody?!?). He did say that was in scripture. I’ve heard that before, so I didn’t know whether to contest it as scripture or not. And, not to reiterate, he does believe in Sola Scriptura if it backs up his argument. But I show him scriptural proof, I’m not looking at the quote “in context”. Have I mentioned how fun these discussions can get?

NotWorthy
 
NotWorthy,

Maybe your friend is focusing on 2 Kings and Chronicles and missing Exodus, Numbers and Deuteronomy? Found it on Biblegateway.com

Peace,
Elizabeth
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 34:7
maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

Numbers 14:18
‘The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.’

Deuteronomy 5:9
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

2 Kings 14:6
Yet he did not put the sons of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the LORD commanded: “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins.” Deut. 24:16 ]

2 Chronicles 25:4
Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded: “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins.” Deut. 24:16 ]
 
Elizabeth,

Thanks for the information. I’m going to keep this, as I’m awaiting his rebuttal.

John
 
Grace & Peace!

Notworthy, these are great questions. I’d like to raise a couple points, though, that may be helpful. They may not, though. So…do what you will with this.

It’s my belief that Baptism does two things–it purifies, and it seals. The purification of Baptism relates to both original sin and particular sins, and the sealing of baptism imparts to the one baptised the “character” of Christ which effectively replaces the character deformed by original sin and allows for the living of a life of grace.

Re: original sin, with the Eastern churches, I think the nature of original sin somewhat belies the word “sin”. So often, sin is something of which one is guilty and for which one is to be punished. Original sin is not sin in this sense, but is a general tendency of the individual to choose sin–something like an inherited moral disease. Original sin does not necessarily make one sinful, but describes a host of spiritual and moral symptoms related to the original fall of man. Do babies have original sin? Yes. Are they worthy of punishment for it? No. Why? Because they have no capacity to act on this defect in their nature which, by the way, is not natural to them–sin is not natural to people, i.e., it is not what people were made for. And our original nature is not wholly destroyed, but wounded. Nature is wounded, but not destroyed.

So why baptize infants? In order to strengthen their character in Christ–to give them the spiritual seal of the Risen Lord which will aid them throughout their lives, and to make sure, through the vows taken by the child’s sponsors and parents, that the child’s life is kept for Christ, that he or she will be brought up in the church, that the grace that pours from the character of Christ may better flow into and through the child as he or she develops.

Anyway, those are my thoughts!

–Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
Mark, Great Reply! BTW We need an icon showing someone hitting the nail on the head (How 'bout it moderators?)

I think explaining it, “OS”, as not being a sin itself, but inheriting the capability to sin, helps explain the issue more plainly. When you line this up with Paul’s teachings on the matter, the picture begins to form. I often relate to my CCE class how my faith is like a puzzle or a mosaic. As I come to understand each tenet of our Church, I hear an audible click (at least in my head I do…it helps drown out the voices…) like the sound of a piece snapping into the puzzle and my picture (of faith) becomes more complete.

Thanks again, for putting up with my ramblings. I remain NotWorthy
 
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