Help with Psalter & Missal readings

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Hi,

I’ve recently (very) started using the book of daily prayer from the divine office in my devotions at home. Very useful generally - though I’m probably doing all sorts of things wrong with it. Not that that should matter much since I’m not doing this in a community setting. Taking the prayers as a sort of bouncing off point instead of just as written probably wouldn’t be so easy in a community setting. Couple of questions baffling me at the moment.

This morning the canticle was from Daniel 3 : 3, 4, 6, 11-18. However, when I looked it up in the New Jerusalem Bible so see the missed out verses the verse numbering was very different. Anyone know why that should be? I am mystified. Is the verse numbering different between different catholic Bibles? Does the verse numbering for chapter 3 begin again at verse one in other catholic Bibles at the start of the section preserved in Greek but not Hebrew?

Yesterday morning the scripture reading said it was from Jud 8: 21b-23. I looked this up too. It’s not found in those verses in Judges or Judith or in Jude which only has one chapter anyway. So where can I find these verses in a Bible? Does “Jud” refer to a different book?

I am gradually moving towards catholicism. It would be nice if the prayer book verses actually lined up with the verses I find in the Bible so how can I make this happen?

Regarding the mass readings for today, the psalm is taken from psalm 119, verses 41, 43-45, 47-48. What happened to verses 42 and 46? What was wrong with them that they weren’t deemed fit to be read alongside the other verses. Personally I turned again to the Bible to read the missing verses. And the prayer in verse 42 was very helpful to me at this time. Had I just used the missal verses I would have missed out on this blessing.

It is easy to get worried and suspicious when scripture verses are left out of the text and you can’t see a good reason why - please give me a good reason. I’ve only ever seen verses missed out in this way in one church I was a part of - and that was generally to justify some “prophetic” point that otherwise would be ripped apart by the missed out verse.

Sometimes I can see why verses may be, if necessary, left out of a public reading - they just don’t apply to the church situation. Missing verse 5 (or should that be 28?) of the passage in Daniel chapter 3 is a case in point. The loss of much of verse 27 is less easy to justify in this manner. And in the case of psalm 119 I personally can’t see any good reason at all to lose the verses.

Please help explain this to me.

Blessings

Asteroid

BTW - I loved the juxtaposition this morning: of Galatians 5 with Paul’s insistence of freedom from the law, with Psalm 199 with the psalmist’s promise to keep the law without fail for ever and ever (New Jerusalem). Great to have both thoughts at once and to be inspired to ponder the relationship between freedom and obedience.
 
the revised lectionary was put together after years of work and study by the Church, designed to proclaim all the Gospel and NT writings, and most of the OT over the 3-year Sunday cycle and 2-year daily cycle of Mass readings. The psalms are prayed over the 4-week LOH cycle, with OT and NT canticles and readings, including the Office of Readings, to supplement and enlarge on the teaching contained in the lectionary. So even if the individual does not partake of all this richness of the Word every day, the universal Church does. Liturgy is the Opus Dei, work of God and work of the People, the continuous proclamation of the Word and celebration of the Paschal Mystery in union with the whole church on earth, in purgatory and in heaven. I guess we can trust the Church to put together the verses chosen for each occassion and I find no need to second guess. It is highly unlikely that any of us as individuals have knowledge or insight greater than that of the Magesterium.
 
Thanks for that.

(sorry about the typo - psalm 199 indeed!)

At least the section of psalm 119 (or 118 - I guess I’m going to have to get used to the Greek numbering) is found in full in the psalter and I’ll get to it again in a couple of weeks. I suppose I’d better just trust that the church knows what it’s doing. That will make a change, to be part of a church that knows what it is doing.

Anyone know why the verse numbering is different in Daniel? And does anyone know where the passage Jud 8: 21b-23 is found? I tried looking it up in an electronic concordance for the KJV with Apocrypha as that’s the only set of deutero-canonical books I have on this machine. No verse containing the word “Moses” looked similar. But perhaps the software is faulty.

Please point me to the passage - I want to read the verses before and after.

Yes - just discovered the software is faulty. It claims to be searching KJV plus apocrypha. I just tried searching for “Nerias” found in the first verse of Baruch. It did not find it. I assume therefore the verses are in the books unsearched. And that making a suggestion to the wonderful maker of E-Sword might be useful. (recommends E-Sword - it is wonderful software even though I’ve just found this little glitch. Easy to use, nice features and interface, and free).

Actually this has been helpful - I’ve always been warned away from the “extra” books of catholic bibles and know them now to be the “missing” books of protestant bibles. This has caused me to read Judith chapter 8 - which gives great encouragement to get on and read the rest of it. God can use even my confusion.

So, back to the psalter liturgy and the daily missal readings. So much to learn in so many ways. Please pray for me - new to RCIA. I’m at peace about this but there’s still lots of doctrinal things I’ve got to work through - all the things I believed were wrong or was told were wrong. Much study, much prayer.

Blessings

Asteroid
 
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otm:
I don’t know - Jud- could it be judges?
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It could be Judges - but the passage that’s from Jud 8 in the psalter is not in Judges 8 in my Bibles.
 
Hope this helps.

Since you mentioned that you’re searching a KJV, you may have to specifically search for “The Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Young Men” or some similar title to see the canticle you’re looking for.

But if you’re looking at a New Jerusalem Bible, the canticle of Azariah will start at verse 24 of chapter 3 (non-Catholic Bibles do not include this passage, and verse 24 reads “then Nebuchadnezzar jumped to his feet…”).

I just realized your confusion: you mentioned that you are in Wales. You are then using the “Divine Office” edition of the Liturgy of the Hours, approved for the United Kingdom and the rest of the Commonwealth. The readings are
from the Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition The RSV-CE numbers it differently (originally being a Protestant translation), but you should still find it after verse 23. The US edition takes its readings from the New American Bible, and my US breviary does indeed indicate Daniel 3:26, 27, 29, 34-41.

Now as for Judith. I don’t have my RSV printed copy right now, but the US Breviary indicates the reading in question as Judith 8:25-27. Checking my original Jerusalem Bible, verses 25 and 26 are double-marked with italicized verse numbers 21 and 22, meaning they were numbered that way in the Vulgate. So this may also be a source of the confusion. I’ll counter-check my RSV for its numbering. So the passage in the NJB you’re looking for is Judith 8:25-27, just as the US breviary indicates.

As for “skipping” the verses, it’s not really so much about omitting, more than taking those verses that drive home the particular message the reading imparts for that day. Nothing to worry about.

God bless you on your journey home.
 
Many thanks porthos11 - no time to consider everything you wrote until later.

But thanks - it is Judith. And the Douay Reims has roughly the same as the psalter.

The confusion arose since I have the New Jerusalem - chapter 8 starts about the same as the Douay Reims. But by the time you get to verses 21-23 the two translations are completely different. In the New Jerusalem Isac and Jacob and Abraham do get a mention later but Moses seems to have vanished entirely. Unless I’m being dense.

More later hopefully.

Blessings & thanks

Asteroid
 
Is the RSV-CE the same as the RSV Common Bible? We’ve got the latter but the deuterocanonical books are placed after the OT which is annoying. If we have them in the Bible it seems better to put them in the Bible rather than making them look like an added afterthought. (On the other hand until recently I’d have preferred not to have them at all).

And yes I’ve checked - and the verse numbers for the Daniel reading are as in the RSV Common Bible, starting the passage at verse 1. The New Jerusalem/Douay Reims start at verse 24, logically enough since they follow on from verse 23.

Wow - I just got more fascinated. The canticle from morning prayer on week 4 Sunday and week 4 Tuesday are from the two songs in Daniel 3. On Sunday it was numbered as in New Jerusalem. On Tuesday it was numbered as in RSV Common Bible. Looking at the index that I just found, Tuesday was taken from RSV, Sunday from the Grail Version. A version nowhere in this house, either on paper or computer.

So that clears that up completely. Confusing but with a reason. :confused: 👍

As for the differences in Judith - please note my Greek isn’t exactly great. I did pass my Greek at college but mainly by learning the English text. I’ve just been comparing the Septuagint and the Vulgate with the modern translations at hand. The LXX and Vulgate differ. The daily office translation (whichever it is) follows the Vulgate. The New Jerusalem follows the LXX. Which explains why the two are different.

Are there any good (and clear) sources online about the translation of the Vulgate and which texts the translators used? I’ve always been told they used the LXX (and to a good protestant that’s a very naughty thing to do!) but here it seems not to but to use another source that mentions Moses but not the sheep of Laban. Another thing to get fascinated with.

Don’t worry - I’m not going to get sidetracked from the more important things. And yes, this does feel like coming home/coming in from the cold/coming out of the wilderness.

Blessings
 
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asteroid:
Is the RSV-CE the same as the RSV Common Bible? We’ve got the latter but the deuterocanonical books are placed after the OT which is annoying. If we have them in the Bible it seems better to put them in the Bible rather than making them look like an added afterthought. (On the other hand until recently I’d have preferred not to have them at all).
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The Common Bible is an ecumenical edition, suitable for use by Catholics and Protestants alike. I think the main difference is as you mentioned, the DC books are “sandwiched” between the protocanonical OT and the New Testament. The RSV-Catholic Edition has an identical OT, except for the DC’s interspersed. The NT has some translation modifications (e.g. brothers becomes brethren when referring to Jesus’ kin, Mary “full of grace” rather than “highly favored”, and some transfers from footnotes to text and vice versa).
And yes I’ve checked - and the verse numbers for the Daniel reading are as in the RSV Common Bible, starting the passage at verse 1. The New Jerusalem/Douay Reims start at verse 24, logically enough since they follow on from verse 23.
(snip)
Looking at the index that I just found, Tuesday was taken from RSV, Sunday from the Grail Version. A version nowhere in this house, either on paper or computer.
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Wow indeed 😃 I didn’t even know that. But then I’m obligated to use the US breviary, the UK edition is not approved here.
As for the differences in Judith - please note my Greek isn’t exactly great. I did pass my Greek at college but mainly by learning the English text. I’ve just been comparing the Septuagint and the Vulgate with the modern translations at hand. The LXX and Vulgate differ. The daily office translation (whichever it is) follows the Vulgate. The New Jerusalem follows the LXX. Which explains why the two are different.
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I think most modern translations of the DC books follow the Septuagint numbering.
Are there any good (and clear) sources online about the translation of the Vulgate and which texts the translators used? I’ve always been told they used the LXX (and to a good protestant that’s a very naughty thing to do!)
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I know St. Jerome translated the OT protocanonicals from the Hebrew, not too sure about the Deuterocanonicals.
 
A late - and short response.

Thanks everyone for all your help. These things are becoming clearer. Having more than one way to number things can be confusing. I’m only semi getting used to the different numberings for the Psalms. I suppose consensus in these things through the entire church would be too much to ask for!

Blessings

Asteroid
 
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