Help with Rev 1:1 please

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I am trying to show my JW friend the scriptural support for the Deity of Christ and the concept of the Trinity, however, I have a problem with Rev. 1:1. They use this passage to show that Jesus is not God b/c of the distinction supposedly made when listing them together seperately.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him…”

I know there is a distinction between the person of God the Father and the person of God the Son, but here there seems to be a distinction between Jesus Christ and God. There is also a passage like his in Acts.

I’d appreciate any light you could shine on this.

Thanks
~donna

 

[Thal59]

The problem you will run into is that the JWs have a poor translation of scriptures. It would help to search through the Catholic Answers articles for help such as…

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9110chap.asp

It shouldn’t take much research here, or on other websites to show the fallacy of JW teachings regarding Christ.

Thal59

 

[Lazerlike42]

Well, for one thing, take a look at Revelation 22. The entire chapter is filled with statements that show Christ is God. For one, it speaks of “the throne of God and of the Lamb,” indicating that the throne is of both. It then immediately says to worship “him.” Then, later on, it says to worship only God.

I think the best may be Rev 1:17, where Hesus says “Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last,” or 2:8, where Jesus says, “The first and the last, who once died but came to life, says this,” or 22:13, where Jesus says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Take all those in comparison to Isaiah 44:6 - “Thus says the Lord, Israel’s King and redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; there is no God but me.”

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Yes, I have studied their translation and I see, for instance John 1:1 and 10:33 translated “a God”, but in Rev 1:1 our translations agree. I just don’t know how to answer them about this particular passage which seems to distinguish between the two.

I have many scripture passages that support the Deity of Christ and the Trinity, however, I’m not sure how to answer this particular passage in Revelations. Perhaps it isn’t so much a distinction between God and Jesus as it is an assumption when we see “God” that they are referring to “the Father”, as in the phrase “Son of God” which also does not distinguish the Son from God, but the Son from the Father b/c they are distinct people with the same nature (God).

Of course, until I can explain the Trinity first, Rev 1:1 will seem to back up their belief. I’m just hoping I can find an alternate way of explaining it.

Thanks
~donna

 

[Lazerlike42]

Ask them if Revelation contradicts itself. If they say yes, then you have a whole other area to explore! If they say no, which they probably will, then point to Revelation’s explicit references to Jesus as God, like Revelation 22, and point out that if Revelation 1:1 shows Jesus is not God, that would be a contradiction in the book.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Lazerlike42:

Well, for one thing, take a look at Revelation 22. The entire chapter is filled with statements that show Christ is God. For one, it speaks of “the throne of God and of the Lamb,” indicating that the throne is of both. It then immediately says to worship “him.” Then, later on, it says to worship only God.

I think the best may be Rev 1:17, where Hesus says “Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last,” or 2:8, where Jesus says, “The first and the last, who once died but came to life, says this,” or 22:13, where Jesus says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Take all those in comparison to Isaiah 44:6 - “Thus says the Lord, Israel’s King and redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; there is no God but me.”

Good stuff. Thank you. I’m afraid I don’t know a thing about Revelations, but I can see that it would be a good thing to start studying, as it looks like it would help tremendously with explaining Christ’s Deity. Well, there will be other opportunities (hopefully) for us to discuss that.

Thanks,
~donna

 

[Todd_Easton]

An argument from the Book of Revelation that Jesus Christ is the Lord God, the Almighty:

Rev 1:8 says the Lord God, the Almighty, is the Alpha and the Omega. And Rev 22:12-13 says the Alpha and the Omega is the first and the last…
Rev 1:17-18 says the first and the last is He who died and is now alive for evermore, that’s Jesus Christ. Therefore, one must conclude that Jesus Christ is the Lord God, the Almighty. (logic: If A = B and B = C and C = D, then A = D.)

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Todd Easton:

An argument from the Book of Revelation that Jesus Christ is the Lord God, the Almighty:

Rev 1:8 says the Lord God, the Almighty, is the Alpha and the Omega. And Rev 22:12-13 says the Alpha and the Omega is the first and the last…
Rev 1:17-18 says the first and the last is He who died and is now alive for evermore, that’s Jesus Christ. Therefore, one must conclude that Jesus Christ is the Lord God, the Almighty. (logic: If A = B and B = C and C = D, then A = D.)

Hey, I never was any good at algebra . Seriously, I do get that. I will jot that one down. I stil don’t understand Rev 1:1 though.

 

[Fidelis]

The Navarre Commentary on Revelation has this helpful note on this verse:

1… The future is known to
God the Father **(the Greek text uses the definite article, “the God”,
which is how the New Testament usually refers to God the Father); ** and
Jesus Christ, being the Son, shares in this knowledge which is being
communicated to the author of the book. It speaks of “the revelation
of Jesus Christ” not only because it has come to John from Christ but
also because our Lord is the main subject, the beginning and end, of
this revelation: he occupies the central position in all these great
visions in which the veils concealing the future are torn to allow
Light (Jesus Christ himself: cf. Rev 21:23; 22:5) to dispel the
darkness.

By the way, donna, if you are going to study the book of Revelation, the Navarre Bible Commentary on Revelation is a great (and inexpensive – $15) place to start.

 

[VociMike]

JoyToBeCatholic:

I am trying to show my JW friend the scriptural support for the Deity of Christ and the concept of the Trinity, however, I have a problem with Rev. 1:1. They use this passage to show that Jesus is not God b/c of the distinction supposedly made when listing them together seperately.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him…”

Never forget that if they are going to reject the Church which teaches that Jesus is God, they have no business accepting that Revelation is even scripture. If the Church is wrong about Jesus, what guarantees that it is right about Revelation being scripture?

Have him start by proving that Revelation is inerrant, without appealing to the authority and decisions of the Church.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

VociMike:

Never forget that if they are going to reject the Church which teaches that Jesus is God, they have no business accepting that Revelation is even scripture. If the Church is wrong about Jesus, what guarantees that it is right about Revelation being scripture?

Have him start by proving that Revelation is inerrant, without appealing to the authority and decisions of the Church.

well, they have an authority too, but we aren’t discussing the WBTS yet. They act as though they trust the Bible solely, so, I am showing them what the Bible has to say about the Deity of Christ - since that is the first thing we have discussed that I am not in agreement with them on.

By the way, donna, if you are going to study the book of Revelation, the Navarre Bible Commentary on Revelation is a great (and inexpensive – $15) place to start.

Thanks! I’ll look into that.
~donna

 

[CactusJack]

Donna…

My favorite verse to show the Divinity of Jesus is
found in John 20. Jesus is making another
appearance to the disciples and He walks over to
Thomas and shows him His wounds. Thomas
exclaims… “My Lord and my God.”

Jesus accepts this worship and does not correct
Thomas for calling Him God!!

Case Closed!!

Jesus is God!

Cactus Jack

 

[Strider]

One little unelated tip in dealing with JW’s. They are very adept at making their point from scripture (and they are very picky and choosy), but watch them closely when you try to respond. You can almost see the shade go down as they tune you out.
You must keep them engaged. Continually ask them questions: Do you agree? What do you think? How do you read this poassage? ect.
DO NOT let them zone out on you. And, they have their course pretty much programmed. Don’t let them play “Bible bingo,” jumping from verse to verse (“Let’s go a little deeper into this…” works pretty well) or ask them questions they may not be prepared to answer. Some of them are remarkably easily confused or upset.
As to the case at hand, any good Bible Cheat Sheet should have a section on the “Divinity of Christ,” on it. Overload them with those passages, as well as the Alpha and Omega series from above (that’s Fr. Pacwa’s favorite).
Because I am easily frustrated by JW’s, I always read 1 Cor 13:1 -8 before I discuss anything with JW’s.
Good luck
.

 

[Loren_1of6]

You have one sentence that seems to say one thing and you have an entire collection of books that explicitly states the opposite.

Are you really going to spend your effort trying to disprove what someone thinks the one sentence might be saying, or would you rather immerse yourself in the whole truth collected in the writings of the Bible?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

JoyToBeCatholic:

I am trying to show my JW friend the scriptural support for the Deity of Christ and the concept of the Trinity, however, I have a problem with Rev. 1:1. They use this passage to show that Jesus is not God b/c of the distinction supposedly made when listing them together seperately.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him…”

I know there is a distinction between the person of God the Father and the person of God the Son, but here there seems to be a distinction between Jesus Christ and God. There is also a passage like his in Acts.

I’d appreciate any light you could shine on this.

Thanks
~donna

scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

should be enough.

I would avoid discussing religion with the JWs, though, because nothing you say will convince them

 

[Lazerlike42]

Semper Fi:

I would avoid discussing religion with the JWs, though, because nothing you say will convince them

That’s a grave sin right there. It is A) refusing to preach the gospel to a select group and B) judging the hearts of that group and that they are closed to the gospel. Even if we think it won’t convince them, we are obliged to make an effort unless, and only unless, it would cause us to sin or to be in the near occassion of sin (such as if it caused us to have doubts in our faith).

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Thanks for all the replies. I’ve been expecting them since Tuesday, but I forgot that they came on a Thursday last week, so, perhaps they will come today.

My favorite verse to show the Divinity of Jesus is
found in John 20. Jesus is making another
appearance to the disciples and He walks over to
Thomas and shows him His wounds. Thomas
exclaims… “My Lord and my God.”

Jesus accepts this worship and does not correct
Thomas for calling Him God!!

Case Closed!!

Jesus is God!

Ah, I only wish it were that easy! No, they see that verse as My 1) Lord, and my 2) God. Meaning, “my Jesus and my God the Father”. (sigh…)

One little unelated tip in dealing with JW’s. They are very adept at making their point from scripture (and they are very picky and choosy), but watch them closely when you try to respond. You can almost see the shade go down as they tune you out.
You must keep them engaged. Continually ask them questions: Do you agree? What do you think? How do you read this poassage? ect.
DO NOT let them zone out on you. And, they have their course pretty much programmed. Don’t let them play “Bible bingo,” jumping from verse to verse (“Let’s go a little deeper into this…” works pretty well) or ask them questions they may not be prepared to answer. Some of them are remarkably easily confused or upset.
As to the case at hand, any good Bible Cheat Sheet should have a section on the “Divinity of Christ,” on it. Overload them with those passages, as well as the Alpha and Omega series from above (that’s Fr. Pacwa’s favorite).

Yes, I have an overwhelming amount of scriptural proof. I can cite some of it if anyone is interested. I’ll do that after this post. But my main concern is this passage of Rev b/c I simply don’t know how to answer it, and I don’t want to leave any holes open. My husband seems to think that it’s a given that “God” means “God the Father” there. Perhaps that is it. I mean, it has to doesn’t it?
They used to be quite mechanical in our “studies”, but they have loosened up a lot since then. They’ve been coming here since at least November, maybe October. They used to “zone out” before, but now that genuinely seem to think about the things I ask. I try not to come across as trying to teach them something, but rather, that we can learn together (it’s always good to deepens one’s knowledge of the faith afterall!). The woman who comes regularly is very open with me now and we have very genuine conversations. She always brings someone along - usually someone different each time, but I’ve met everyone by now I think, as I recognize the person she brings every time now the past few weeks.

p://www.scripturecatholic.com/je…t_divinity.html

should be enough.

I would avoid discussing religion with the JWs, though, because nothing you say will convince them

Thank you for that link. I used to avoid the JWs too, but I had questions about my own faith at the time I engaged conversation with them. Studying with them has made me dig deeper into my own faith and has taught me more about doctrines I thought I knew before. I really feel like this is solidifying my own understanding of, say, the Trinity for one, and at the same time, hopefully, it is showing them the truth. As long as they are willing to continue, I won’t back out. I don’t feel the need to back out b/c I’m not tempted by their “religion”. If our conversations end, it will be their doing. I pray they won’t b/c I have a lot of issues I’d like to raise with them. (their “translation” for one - which is where this conversation will ultimately lead).

~donna

 

[Lazerlike42]

Are you aware of the site where it shows internal contradictions in the NWT?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Lazerlike42:

Are you aware of the site where it shows internal contradictions in the NWT?

Yes. I’ve seen a few sites actually.

I was going to post what I have so far, but it’s on a notepad on my computer and I didn’t cite all the websites I got the info from, so I’m not sure it would be right to post. But basically, I’ve studied where their translation comes from, the sources they use to defend that “translation” (NWT), the inconsistencies with the translation from Greek (“proskuneo”, for one. that is “worship” vs “obeisance”). Even the name “Jehovah”. I’ve studied up on the WBTS who is their final “authority” despite their claims to sola scriptura. Know all about the 1914 invisible return of Christ, turning down blood-transfusions, the founders of the “religion” and I’m prolly forgetting other things. I’ve done so much research I think I know their religion better than them .

Well, they were supposed to come this week, but they haven’t. They had invited me to “Kingdom Hall” last week and I declined their invitation. Between that and the questions I’ve raised about the Trinity, they may have been advised to back-off from me.

Well, if they don’t come back, I leave it in God’s hands. Nothing else I can do really.

Thanks for your help!
~donna

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Lazerlike42:

That’s a grave sin right there. It is A) refusing to preach the gospel to a select group and B) judging the hearts of that group and that they are closed to the gospel. Even if we think it won’t convince them, we are obliged to make an effort unless, and only unless, it would cause us to sin or to be in the near occassion of sin (such as if it caused us to have doubts in our faith).

I do not “refuse” to discuss with anyone who is sincere in their desire to understand the Faith. I “refuse” to discuss religion with people who are just trying to convert me, and not seriously interested in our Faith anyway. If a JW comes up and asks me an honest inquiry about Catholicism, fine, but I draw the line with just going back and forth.