Help!

[brotherhrolf]

I made my First Communion and my Confirmation just before Vatican II. I grew up chanting the Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei in Latin. We also responded to the priest as a congregation pretty much as we respond to the priest in English today. Dominus vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo. (e.g. Offertory, Secret, Preface).

If the Mass was not sung, we recited the same things - in Latin. That’s what I grew up with. I was an altar boy but when I was not serving, I distinctly remember us responding as a congregation in Latin.

We did so after V II, in Latin, as we phased out the TLM and transitioned to the NO.

I know there are you liturgical experts out there. When I joined my cathedral choir in 1983, I knew how to chant the Asperges Me, Gaudeamus, and all of the plainsong chants. I can sing the Kyrie, Gloria, etc. from memory - I can’t tell you what tone, etc. I can tell you that Worship III uses the same tones I learned as a kid and that my sons can chant the same Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei I learned as a child.

I am being told that not all parishes did this. I have been running around on these forums under the assumption that my experience was normal for the years just before Vatican II.

Any insight?

 

[Joannm]

I was a kid when the Latin Mass was still around and we didn’t learn any of those chants. The only mass they sang them at was the noon and because of the fasting rules and because it ended after 1:00, few people went to that mass.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I grew up in a pre Vatican II Church with the Latin. In no place do I ever remember the congregation responding in the Latin. Only the altar boys If I recall the transition which took place shortly after I left the seminary after 8 years, the lack of response was one of the reasons for the vernacular to be used world wide.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B…

 

[brotherhrolf]

Deacon, quite frankly, this is driving me nuts.

I’ll have to ask all y’all liturgical experts out there. I can only report what I experienced. I distinctly remember singing the Propers of the Mass in Latin before Vatican II and having them removed one-by-one after Vatican II.

Can someone shed some light on the “dialogue Mass”? This is the only thing I can think of which might apply to this situation. Deacon Ed, yours truly is younger than you and grew up in NO. Did the archdiocese do “something”? This is getting really freaky for me because I can remember responding to the Asperges Me or Vidi Aquam out in the congregation.

Not to mention that the altar boys didn’t chant the responses yet I know how to respond to far too many responses - e.g. when the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyons came to BR and gave the apostolic blessing in Latin. Deacon Ed, I knew how to respond and there were only about five folks in the entire cathedral choir who could along with me and this was in '92

I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone.

 

[saint_rafael]

It could have been the High Mass when the congregation responded.

In a Low Mass, the priest is silent and prays silently and in a low voice.

This dialogue was probably part of the Mass in the '62 Missal. The 1962 Missal was only in use for a few years until the Novus Ordo came along. Most older Catholics probably only have memory of the TLM before the '62 Missal because they changes were only around for about six years before the revolution of the Novus Ordo.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

I made my First Communion and my Confirmation just before Vatican II. I grew up chanting the Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei in Latin. We also responded to the priest as a congregation pretty much as we respond to the priest in English today. Dominus vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo. (e.g. Offertory, Secret, Preface).

If the Mass was not sung, we recited the same things - in Latin. That’s what I grew up with. I was an altar boy but when I was not serving, I distinctly remember us responding as a congregation in Latin.

We did so after V II, in Latin, as we phased out the TLM and transitioned to the NO.

I know there are you liturgical experts out there. When I joined my cathedral choir in 1983, I knew how to chant the Asperges Me, Gaudeamus, and all of the plainsong chants. I can sing the Kyrie, Gloria, etc. from memory - I can’t tell you what tone, etc. I can tell you that Worship III uses the same tones I learned as a kid and that my sons can chant the same Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei I learned as a child.

I am being told that not all parishes did this. I have been running around on these forums under the assumption that my experience was normal for the years just before Vatican II.

Any insight?

What you grew up with, then, would be a Mass that was celebrated ad experimentum in which the congregation responded to the prayers (called a “dialogue Mass”). In the normal Mass the altar servers responded on behalf of the congregation. Singing was, normally, the province of the choir but in many parishes the people were invited (expected?) to join in and in many parishes they were prohibited from joining.

Your experience was, most assuredly, in the minority. I’m not sure how many parishes followed this model, but it wasn’t many although the model itself was used as part of the basis for the reforms that came out of Vatican II.

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

It could have been the High Mass when the congregation responded.

In a Low Mass, the priest is silent and prays silently and in a low voice.

This dialogue was probably part of the Mass in the '62 Missal. The 1962 Missal was only in use for a few years until the Novus Ordo came along. Most older Catholics probably only have memory of the TLM before the '62 Missal because they changes were only around for about six years before the revolution of the Novus Ordo.

Saint Rafael, mark your calendar. We finally agree
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Deacon Ed, I bet we have some of the people confused with our making posts back to back. For all of you who do not know, there are two of us. Deacon Ed from California, and me, Deacon Ed B from Texas.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[brotherhrolf]

What you grew up with, then, would be a Mass that was celebrated ad experimentum in which the congregation responded to the prayers (called a “dialogue Mass”). In the normal Mass the altar servers responded on behalf of the congregation. Singing was, normally, the province of the choir but in many parishes the people were invited (expected?) to join in and in many parishes they were prohibited from joining.

Your experience was, most assuredly, in the minority. I’m not sure how many parishes followed this model, but it wasn’t many although the model itself was used as part of the basis for the reforms that came out of Vatican II.

Deacon Ed

Insofar as I know, Deacon Ed in Tejas, this is what I grew up with in New Orleans. May not have been the whole Archdiocese but in New Orleans proper this is what I grew up with - all of us Catholic school types. I cannot remember anything different from OLPH in Kenner to OLDP in Metairie or when I was in high school (65 - 69) in the French Quarter. This is what I grew up with and why I am so passionate about it. I never grew up w/o ongregational participation in Latin. I grew up singing or responding to speech in Latin as part of Mass.

I honestly thought that this was the norm. I apologize to those of you whom I may have offended in my ignorance. I had absolutely no idea.

Bro is sitting here laughing his head off. The idea that I grew up under the dialogue Mass makes me a pioneer for the NO and then Bro thought this was normal… Don’t hit me folks, I had no idea, and the irony is just too sweet.

We ALWAYS participated in the very parts of the Mass in which the congregation participates today. That’s why I can recite or chant in Latin the Kyrie, Gloria, etc…and why I could respond to the Asperges Me, etc.

My parishes were never quiet. My high school was never quiet. The congregation participated in the Mass in Latin. We sang or recited the Gloria, etc.

That is why when those two priests from South America say the NO Mass in Latin on EWTN, I’m thinking to myself - whah? This is what I grew up with!!!

I’d had no idea y’all…no idea. I LIKE what I grew up with.

 

[Dauphin]

If only Mass were still quiet… it’s a great opportunity for prayer. The TLM is like a breath of fresh air in that regard.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

What you grew up with, then, would be a Mass that was celebrated ad experimentum in which the congregation responded to the prayers (called a “dialogue Mass”). In the normal Mass the altar servers responded on behalf of the congregation. Singing was, normally, the province of the choir but in many parishes the people were invited (expected?) to join in and in many parishes they were prohibited from joining.

Your experience was, most assuredly, in the minority. I’m not sure how many parishes followed this model, but it wasn’t many although the model itself was used as part of the basis for the reforms that came out of Vatican II.

Deacon Ed

Actually my 40’s Father Stedman missal references the dialog mass. However, I didn’t experience it until the early 60’s when it became quite popular in the suburbs west of Boston, and probably elsewhere. We also had the people beginning to chant the mass.

 

[puzzleannie]

I think it depended on what Mass you attended. My dad usually preferred the shorter, later “low” Mass, little or no singing, or chant by either priest or choir, sometimes one congregational hymn usually at the recessional. I loved the “high” Mass, earlier, longer, and usually went to that one beginning in jr High when I joined the youth choir, and that is how I learned the chant, and hymns.(it also meant I had to walk to church, with my older brother, who also was in choir, but I did not mind. My current parish is the first in 30 years in which we have used any Latin at all–and it’s like riding a bike, it does come back to you. for both my brother and I the loss of the musical heritage that accompanied changes in the Mass has been the most painful (of many painful events) part of the post V2 Mass. in fact, it drove him away from the Church for a long time, but thank God, he is back, and slowly bringing good music back to his own parish.

 

[First_of_9]

Southeast Missouri, late 1950s to early 1960s: High Mass every Sunday at 10:30 during school year. Grade School choir and priest only. All other Masses were low Masses, server only responded. Sometimes hymns were sung before or after low mass by choir only.

Congregation sang only during Benediction, usually on Wednesday night as part of Miraculous Medal Novena, and during the Christmas Novena.

We had the Dialog Mass booklets at the church, but I don’t remember them ever being used, even during daily school Mass.

Oh, most people did not use missals. It was a great thrill when I got my St. Joseph Daily Missal for Christmas of 7th grade–1960.

 

[allhers]

Brother, I had the same experience (I am young too, LOL) , or at least I was then. I remember, but just faintly, (a dim memory) when the Mass was between the altar boy and the Priest, (the responses I mean of course, not the Mass itself.) I was taken to daily Mass up until I was 3, then my Grandmother died, and we moved to another Parish and I didn’t go as often, always Sundays and Holy Days though and then it changed to where I could also respond in Latin…and trust me I was no altar girl, not back then, they didn’t have them. I remember that the Latin was in the Missal on one side of the page and English on the other side. It didn’t take long before I knew all the Latin responses either. Maybe its just easier for young people to learn a new language.
So, I don’t know, maybe between the changes in Parishes, or the fact that I was so young, I just can’t remember it all clearly, but I do remember that it used to seem like just the altar boys and Priest responded and then to the Latin with me responding also.
THEN, the whole Mass changed altogether and it was in English.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Ok, in my parish we had a 6 am low Mass which was just altar boy and priest - low Mass. We had an 8 am Mass on Sundays which was low Mass and altar boys. The 10:30 am Mass could be a High Mass (w/o choir) in which the people recited the Latin parts of the Mass that we recite today. If the Mass was a Solemn High Mass, the choir was there and the people sang the parts of the Mass in plainsong which we would have normally recited in Latin at a High Mass. That’s what I remember. That’s how I grew up.

 

[allhers]

Ok, in my parish we had a 6 am low Mass which was just altar boy and priest - low Mass. We had an 8 am Mass on Sundays which was low Mass and altar boys. The 10:30 am Mass could be a High Mass (w/o choir) in which the people recited the Latin parts of the Mass that we recite today. If the Mass was a Solemn High Mass, the choir was there and the people sang the parts of the Mass in plainsong which we would have normally recited in Latin at a High Mass. That’s what I remember. That’s how I grew up.

Oh, ok, me too, low Mass, which is probably what my Grandmother preferred, and then High Mass, which is what my parents always took us to on Sunday, at 10:30 I believe, (after her death, and after moving to another Parish), also, I do remember Solemn High Mass, the organs, choir, insense, etc…everything was much more solemn. I think thats what I miss and would prefer. It just seemed like I was in heaven on earth. Of course I still think that way but it just doesn’t have the same sense to it, know what I mean? I really do long for the TLM I think. I’m going to have to go to one.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I’m gonna need to respond tomorrow. We value our youth - vis-a -vis LIfe Teen Masses, etc. No one valued our traditional youth 35 + years ago. Just me…mea culpa.

 

[Chatter163]

The Dialogue Mass movement started in Europe in the 1910’s with Vatican approval in 1922 and spread to this country in the thirties and forties. To what extent that this was followed at either High or Low Mass depeded greatly on the bishop and diocese. Some actively encouraged it while others did not. Fr. Gerard Eller, S.J. wrote a book on the Dialogue Mass movement in the Midwest during this period.

The movement received official encouragement by the Holy See in 1958 with the publication of Piux XII’s Instruction on Sacred Music.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Mercy me, am I hearing that not all of the Latin masses were the same.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[ethelzguy]

Mercy me, am I hearing that not all of the Latin masses were the same.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Of course they weren’t

And, many as I recall, would fit the buzz words of a well-known car commercial…

zoom, zoom…