Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Montie_Claunch]

This Fundamentlist gentlment sent me to this website lightministries.com/id521.htm and I am completely stumpt. Please help. Thank you and god bless. :bigyikes:

 

[Shari]

I just went to that site. It seems to me that not everything was put on there. I was just reading the section on the popes. I too was sent some sites to try and save us Catholics and get the truth out. I look at it as a way to get my apologetics skills up. Please remeber the bible even says the devil can twist scripture, and so to can fundamentalist twist things written. Especially when the neglect to include the context in which these remarks were written. I would try to find the original source of the document and see what was really written. Also the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, the one to be like Him here on earth. And other denominations don’t like this. Just my 2cents

 

[severinus]

Lightministries is pretty well known as an anti-Catholic group which takes quotes out of context and grabs anything it can to discredit the Catholic Church. They are especially fond of finding writings of saints and popes and leaving out sections of these writings which conflict with their teachings.

I went to to their ‘Booklets’ section and pulled up the following:
** The final point to note, is that the prophecy declares that this Beast power would make war with the saints of God. No one with any knowledge of history can deny that this description, without question, fits the Roman Catholic church. It is conservatively estimated that the Church of Rome caused over fifty million people to be put to death throughout it’s 1260 year reign. Why were these people murdered? Because they followed Bible truth and their conscience–even when it differed with the established teaching and authority of the Church. Thus it is clear that the Beast of Revelation 13:1-10 and the Little Horn of Daniel 7, unmistakably refers to the Roman Catholic church!**

It is clear from this argument that the authors are merely interested in twisting history to fit their personal interpretation of apocalyptic literature.

50,000,000 people over an arbitrary 1260 years? That’s about 40,000 people per year. What is the source for this? There is no source given; it’s junk. The truth does not need to make up historical lies. Bad history does not come from God.

 

[Fidelis]

Montie-

With all due respect, after reading your numerous posts having to do with difficult questions you are asked by this “fundamentalist gentlemen” and others, it seems to me that you are putting yourself in way over your head. This is especially true if you take their advice to look at grossly anti-Catholic websites.

I sincerely advise you that, instead of exposing yourself to their garbage and then panicking because you can’t answer their ridiculous charges, I suggest you learn more about your own Catholic faith FIRST and then, forearmed. wade into the slime. Otherwise you will be easy pickings for whatever load of carp they dump on you.

Peace,
Fidelis

 

[Montie_Claunch]

Fidelis:

Montie-

With all due respect, after reading your numerous posts having to do with difficult questions you are asked by this “fundamentalist gentlemen” and others, it seems to me that you are putting yourself in way over your head. This is especially true if you take their advice to look at grossly anti-Catholic websites.

I sincerely advise you that, instead of exposing yourself to their garbage and then panicking because you can’t answer their ridiculous charges, I suggest you learn more about your own Catholic faith FIRST and then, forearmed. wade into the slime. Otherwise you will be easy pickings for whatever load of carp they dump on you.

Peace,
Fidelis

But, if I didn’t talk to these people I wouldn’t know what parts of my theology needed work on and then I couldn’t ask ya’ll (whom have been of such a tremedous help and I am truley thankful ). And besides if your going to get to the otherside of the river don’t you need to get wet, and haveing good freinds such as ya’ll always make it easier.

 

[severinus]

Montie,

I understand that you are starting RCIA classes soon. I hope that you will get some good information there.

Have you thought about getting a spiritual director? You can contact your priest and he can get in touch with someone for you.
**
Fidelis** has some good advice for you. At this point, you don’t need to be working on points of theology; you need a good grounding in the Faith, as found in the Catechism and in the Mass.

I notice that you are getting some opposition from your aunt and from a fundamentalist gentleman. I would not advise you to argue with them; if they really want to know what the Church teaches, point them to the Catechism.

Apologetics takes training and experience. Everybody is happy to help you with answers, but it is good to learn the basics first. Everything flows from the basics. If you are going to the other side of the river, first learn where to cross; the water may not be as deep as it seems.

 

[Genesis315]

I didn’t feel like going through that whole site, but one quote is where one pope calls another pope “immortal.”

Funny, i read the document and the whole thing is about how Christ is King and ruler of all existence and above all. Hmmmm. Second, calling a predecessor immortal is a way of saying their legacy is everlasting. Hulk Hogan is also quite often called immortal

Read the document–it’s actually pretty awesome:
newadvent.org/library/docs_pi11qp.htm

It’s all about how turning to Christ is the only answer to the problems of the world.

 

[adventistnomore]

Here’s are a few exaples of quotes cited on the website:

LW> Pope John XXII decreed in 1685, “To believe that our LORD GOD the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed is to be deemed heretical.” Then Pius V stated, “The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth.” Finally, Pope Nicholas I declared, “the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, BEING GOD, cannot be judged by man.”

LW> Pope Pius X stated, “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but HE IS JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? IT IS JESUS CHRIST that Speaks. Does the Pope accord a favor or pronounce an anathema? IT IS JESUS CHRIST who pronounces the anathema or accords the favor.”

Now we go to RADIO REPLIES by Fathers Rumble and Carty (volume 2)

2-310. Pope Pius X made the blasphemous claim that he was “Jesus Christ hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who speaks.”

REPLY: A Protestant paper, the “Church Review,” in England, October 3, 1895, charges Cardinal Sarto, Archbishop of Venice, with having uttered those words at Venice. Cardinal Sarto was elected Pope in 1903. But as soon as the charge was made in 1895 that Cardinal Sarto had said those words, inquiries were sent from England to Venice, and Cardinal Sarto produced the manuscipt of his discourse. And this is what he actually did say:

“The Pope REPRESENTS Jesus Christ Himself, and therefore is a loving father. The life of the Pope is a holocaust of love for the human family. His word is love; love, his weapon; love, the answer he gives to all who hate him; love, his flag, that is, the Cross, which signed the greatest triumph on earth and in heaven.”

2-311. Pope Nicholas I. said that the Pope, being God, is judged by no man.

REPLY: Never did Pope Nicholas I. say that the Pope is God. What he does say is this:

“Since those in higher authority are not judged by inferiors, it is evident that the Apostolic See, than which no earthly authority is higher, is judged by none.”

And that is perfectly sound reasoning. Even in civil law, the king is “above the law,” and not subject to his own laws. Hence the legal axiom, “The king can do no wrong.” Italy itself has acknowledged the justice of the Pope’s claim to be independent of all civil jurisdiction, and subject to no earthly authorities.

2-312. In the “Extravagantes” of Pope John XXII, Roman Canon Law says that it is heresy to deny the power of “Our Lord God the Pope.”

REPLY: That remark is attributed, not to Pope John XXII, but to the Canonist Zenzelinus, in his commentary on Title XIV of the “Extravagantes.” But an examination of the original manuscript of Zenzelinus, preserved in the Vatican Library, failed to reveal the words attributed to him; and it has been definitely proved that the reference to God is an interpolation in later copies of his commentary."

• bringyou.to/apologetics/num4.htm

 

[adventistnomore]

Montie,

Many examples on the webite, like those listed above, have been corrupted/twisted. Most of the examples on that website are excessive statements made not by popes, but by individual authors. At times they are teaching Catholic doctrine, but many times they are phrasing it in a VERY confusing way, or making claims that are false.

NOTE: The official teachings of the Catholic Church are derived from the decrees of ecumenical councils, papal encyclicals/declarations, and Vatican-approved catechisms. These, and these alone, bear the mark of infallibility.

Nonetheless, if some statements do bother you, write them down and we can respond to them one by one as best we are able.

• Hugo

 

[adventistnomore]

PS… some of this is outrageous, such as this example:

"We confess that the most holy Pope ought to be honored by all with divine honor, with greater genuflection than due to Christ Himself. (cited from [geocities.com/visplace/godsmith20.htm](http://www.geocities.com/visplace/godsmith20.htm))

I assure you this is baloney.

Many such oaths were “discovered” and presented to Congress during a hearing in 1913, the most famous one being the so-called “Extreme Jesuit Oath.” The true story can be found at this URL (among many others):

geocities.com/okc_catholic/articles/jesuit_oath.html

 

[In_Petto]

Fidelis:

Montie-

With all due respect, after reading your numerous posts having to do with difficult questions you are asked by this “fundamentalist gentlemen” and others, it seems to me that you are putting yourself in way over your head. This is especially true if you take their advice to look at grossly anti-Catholic websites.

I sincerely advise you that, instead of exposing yourself to their garbage and then panicking because you can’t answer their ridiculous charges, I suggest you learn more about your own Catholic faith FIRST and then, forearmed. wade into the slime. Otherwise you will be easy pickings for whatever load of carp they dump on you.

Peace,
Fidelis

I agree with Fidelis and with Severinus above.
If you are starting RCIA soon, or have recently started RCIA, then you simply MUST concentrate on that. Sounds like you are putting the cart before the horse.
There will always be apologetics to be done. Believe me, it never ends, man. There are always questions to answer, lies to conquer, truths to get out to people.

But—if you are not even Catholic yet, you must understand that this is the most important thing in your entire life. Don’t muck it up with all these other things in your brain. It’s a beautiful time–enjoy it, savor it. You’ll look back at this year with a warm and thankful heart. There’s simply no reason to worry about all this stuff now.

 

[Montie_Claunch]

All right. As much as I hate to admitt it, ya’ll are right. I’ve been running around half cocked and rather unprepared. I tone it down a notch or a dozen, till later education provides me with the tools I need. (seriously I will)
And Mr. Andventistnomore I will be taking you up on that.

 

[mercygate]

Montie Claunch:

But, if I didn’t talk to these people I wouldn’t know what parts of my theology needed work on and then I couldn’t ask ya’ll (whom have been of such a tremedous help and I am truley thankful ). And besides if your going to get to the otherside of the river don’t you need to get wet, and haveing good freinds such as ya’ll always make it easier.

Montie, B’loved.

Take Fidelis’ advice. Learn your Catechism before you tangle with people who have a knack for posing a question that can throw you. From your position, the need is to read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest the articles of the faith in a contemplative way, pondering their meaning in light of Scripture.

Leave the apologetics to experienced warriors. The deeper you reflect on the mysteries of the faith, the easier it will be for you to pierce to the heart of a false accusation, and the more sober and well-grounded your response will be.

 

[mercygate]

Six words for ya, Montie: The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

It’s only 700 pages or so and every page is a prayer. Go for it!

 

[In_Petto]

Montie–please don’t take it as “leave it to the vets, kid, WE know what we’re doing”

You’re probably very excited about the Catholic faith and want to get in there and tell people about it.
THAT is not important right now AT ALL.

What is important is you and your faith. This is a great period in your life–live that part of it to the fullest. Don’t worry about all that other “stuff” now.
It really isn’t important compared to what you are about to go through. (if its true you are going to RCIA–i just read it above)

Just concentrate on all the Rites you will go through, and all the stuff you’ll learn, and how much you’ll feel God’s love during the next several months, aand learn all you can about your faith and your Church.
It’s beautiful, man, just enjoy it --RCIA is a great time.

 

[LSK]

MONTIE - The advice given to you to first read the CCD of the Church was the BEST advice. It was given to me when I first found these forums and it is ultimately the best source to fight these weird websites. All I have to do to refute them is say
“Nope, your source is incorrect. The Catechism addresses that subject and it says…” and then I refer them to the Catechism.

You had me worried when I first read your posts - we have several people who have masqueraded as interested in the Faith only to try and hurt people here by refering them to websites like the one you had sent to you by your ‘friend’.

I would also challenge him to read the Catechism and tell you what he can find in it that is ‘unBiblical’.

Good luck, my brother…

 

[adventistnomore]

LSK:

I would also challenge him to read the Catechism and tell you what he can find in it that is ‘unBiblical’.

Haha… yea right. If Protesants did that, there would be no need for any of us to post on the Apologetics forums.

Best wishes Montie, I’d love to hep you along your journey, and yes, any statements that bother you, let us know.

Yours,
Hugo

 

[Montie_Claunch]

Thanks for the advice. I found in the CCC something that clearified my one big problem on Mary (CCC 971) which makes going into R.C.I.A. Classes a whole lot easier. Though I want ya’ll to know that untill Sempteber 13 when the classes start I will still be pestering ya’ll a lot.

 

[mercygate]

Montie Claunch:

Thanks for the advice. I found in the CCC something that clearified my one big problem on Mary (CCC 971) which makes going into R.C.I.A. Classes a whole lot easier. Though I want ya’ll to know that untill Sempteber 13 when the classes start I will still be pestering ya’ll a lot.

We’ll be here. God bless you.

 

[LSK]

adventistnomore:

Haha… yea right. If Protesants did that, there would be no need for any of us to post on the Apologetics forums.

I know, I know - but, Hugo, it is so much fun to see the look on their faces when I say, “No, that’s not true. Your information is incorrect. Have you ever read the Catechism of the Catholic Church? It’s an easy read - even I did it!”.