Help!

[SemperFidelis]

Hello all. I am new to this forum, so if my question is in the wrong place I apologize in advance. I am a Southern Baptist, but have had interests in the Catholic Church for several years now. I have an interest in finding out where things come from. An example would in researching my lineage and heritage. Due to what I would call “itching”, I started to research what my Church history was. Upon my research I of course found out that the Catholic Church was the original Christian Church. I became interested in the history and teachings of the Catholic Church. I researched apologetics such as www.scripturecatholic.com, etc. I began to realize that many of my philosophies on the Christian faith actually adhere more to Catholic teachings than to Baptist ones. Believe me when I say that this is a very difficult thing for me to admit. The fact that the Catholic Church is the original and the oldest Christian Church is something that drew me to its teachings. I agree with many Catholic teachings such as the real presence of Jesus in the Lord’s Supper (transsubstantiation), the veneration of the Saints, the confessing of sins to a priest, as well as several other teachings. I also believe that there is a very Biblical basis for the Catholic Church. However I do have one major qualm if you will. I have considered attending RCIA classes to decide if the Catholic faith is right for me, but I just can’t seem to get over the Vatican’s stance on evolution. I came across the Catholic stance on evolution on www.ewtn.com. I myself interprete the story of Genesis as a real event. I believe that God created the Earth and created Adam and Eve in his image. I believe that certain animals have evolved over the years, but I do not and cannot believe that humans evolved from apes, as it goes against the entire basis of Chrisitanity. If the story of Adam and Eve was only an allegory than there would be no original sin, and the basis of Christianity would be destroyed. I am struggling with this as I have interest in learning more about the Catholic Church, but I just can’t seem to get past this teaching. I am what you would call a “Bible Literalist”, and I know several Catholics and Catholic apologetics that would classify themselves as such. But I am not going to leave my Church and join another if I do not agree with everything that they teach. I am not going to start off my Catholic faith by being a “cafeteria Catholic”. The evolution issue is a very important thing for me, and I just don’t know what to do. Are they’re any Catholics out there who agree with what I said above?

Sorry to be long-winded, but this is very important to me. God Bless!

 

[Sabda]

The Catholic Church does not teach that you have to believe in Evolution or Young-Earth Creationism or any of that stuff. All that stuff is nothing more than theories anyway. I don’t know if you have every listened to John Martignoni but he has many good talks on his site. One just happens to deal with this issue.
If you download his talk The Bible and the Catholic Church he goes into an explanation of what we as Catholics have to believe about the creation account. Yes, the downloads really are free.

The nine things that the Church teaches:

1. The creation of all things out of nothing by God at the beginning of time (including the creation of time).
2. The special creation of man.
3. The creation of woman from man.
4. All of humanity is descended from an original pair of human beings - i.e. Adam and Eve.
5. Adam and Eve were created in an original state of holiness, justice, and immortality.
6. A divine command was laid upon man to prove his obedience to God [do not eat from the tree…]
   God saw how good it was. Then God said, let us make man in our own image, after our likeness.

• Genesis 1:25-26

1. The transgression of that Divine Command at the instigation of Satan.
2. The loss of the state of holiness, justice, and immortality of our 1st parents [because of their disobedience, Adam and Eve were kicked out of Paradise].
3. The promise of a future Redeemer, a Savior

Within those perimeters we can believe the world came about by Evolution or Young/Old earth creationism. Neither really contradicts the Bible. In fact I personally see a form of Evolution in those passages that speak of the first seven days.
We have many Catholics who believe in Evolution, many who believe in Young-Earth Creation and many who believe in there own thing. The Catholic Church has no set dogma/doctrine on any of these theories.

I would encourage you to listen to his talk as it well help you with this issue. BTW, his notes on that talk are here. May God bless you on your journey.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

The disobedience of our ancestral parents was real. The Fall from original Grace was real.

It matters very, very little if our ancestors looked like modern man. God “created” them as rational, souled beings. We are in God’s image in that regard, God is not in ours It matters very, very little if Man’s creation was in an instant–or by means of a longer process (exploded star-dust + water + time+ God’s guidance)

 

[LilyM]

I am what you would call a “Bible Literalist”, and I know several Catholics and Catholic apologetics that would classify themselves as such. But I am not going to leave my Church and join another if I do not agree with everything that they teach. I am not going to start off my Catholic faith by being a “cafeteria Catholic”. The evolution issue is a very important thing for me, and I just don’t know what to do. Are they’re any Catholics out there who agree with what I said above?

Sorry to be long-winded, but this is very important to me. God Bless!

That’s OK. Such things are important to a heck of a lot of people. I think the important thing is to realise that the Bible is literally accurate as to matters pertaining to our salvation. In regard to extraneous details we are not bound to believe every word of it.

And remember that a lot of it is written in forms other than straight scientific prose anyway - in poetical imagery (Psalms or Song of Songs) or prophetic imagery (large chunks of Isaiah, Daniel or Revelations). Such things we CAN’T take literally, for instance when David in the Psalms talks of being surrounded by dogs. Heck, even Jesus used parables and imagery to illustrate certain points.

And sometimes taking it all as literal word-for-word accurate creates a lot of unnecessary angst. As a practical illustration - Luke and Matthew give very different if not actually conflicting genealogies for Jesus. To take them both as literally factual may cause problems - different numbers of generations between Christ and King David, for example.

If we take these genealogies literally - you can misspend an awful lot of time trying to reconcile the two genealogies. If we take and accept the main point of them, however - that Jesus was indeed descended from David - as accurate, and that the details of his descent were perhaps inaccurately recorded by one or other evangelist, problem solved. Is it really essential to our salvation to know precisely HOW Christ was descended from David as long as we understand that he was?

Same with creation and evolution. The Church only speaks to beliefs which are necessary to our salvation. It is necessary for us to believe that God created the world and humans and directly infused our souls into our bodies.

The mechanics of these processes are not really essential to understand in detail. Literally seven days v a longer time period, who knows? Evolution over time - NOT from apes, modern monkeys and apes are a different species, although remarkably similar to ourselves - v instant creation - again, who really knows?

I mean we all grow over time from individual cells into something different and greater, who is to say that our species as a whole hasn’t changed over time? The main thing is that God created us and infused our souls into us. And the idea that we formed as a species slowly over time is certainly consistent with the idea that to God ‘a thousand years are as a day’.

And the idea of one original pair of ancestors is totally consistent with evolution and scientific accounts of how we came to be. From mitochondrial DNA, which passes on to us from our female ancestors but changes very little and very predictably, we know that all humans had the same single female ancestor at least.

You are certainly more than free to believe that the Bible account of creation is literally word-for-word true. There’s nothing preventing a faithful Catholic from believing so, and many faithful Catholics, including scientists, do. But the Church wisely allows for the possibility that it was not all so written, and doesn’t pretend to more knowledge about the matter than she actually has.

 

[amills]

I would suggest you look into the history of the bible itself and how it was compiled. This may help you.

There are many authors to the books of the bible. There are many literary styles in the bible. For example Psalms is very much poetry, Revelations is written in Apocalyptic style. The books of the bible must be read within the context of which they were written.

The bible is not a history book, although it may contain much history. But it was not written to set down historical facts. The bible is not a science book, the authors were not scientists and did not intend to provide scientific facts. The bible, however is a religious book. The authors did intend for it t communicate religious truths. It tells us about God and that God created the world in Genesis. Look at the first few chapters of Genesis and note how there are two descriptions of the order of which God created everything. The two descriptions are not exact. So which one is correct. From a scientific view or historical view we would not know. However from a religious view we know that God created the world.

Remember - the bible needs to be evaluated for the intent of the author. To read it and conclude something different than what the author intended is in my opinion only deluding yourself. I think additional bible study that includes more than just reading the bible yourself and coming to conclusions will help you tremendously.

Welcome to a wonderful journey - coming home to the Catholic Church!

 

[Contarini]

I believe that certain animals have evolved over the years, but I do not and cannot believe that humans evolved from apes, as it goes against the entire basis of Chrisitanity. If the story of Adam and Eve was only an allegory than there would be no original sin, and the basis of Christianity would be destroyed.

First of all, I wouldn’t exactly call it an allegory. I’d call it a true myth. However, I don’t think it can possibly have been intended as literal history–that’s just not the kind of writing it is. Why does this undercut original sin?

I also don’t think the basis of Christianity is original sin. Christians existed for 400 years without an explicit doctrine of original sin.

am what you would call a “Bible Literalist”, and I know several Catholics and Catholic apologetics that would classify themselves as such. But I am not going to leave my Church and join another if I do not agree with everything that they teach. I am not going to start off my Catholic faith by being a “cafeteria Catholic”.

I am not a Catholic myself (though I have been drawn to Catholicism for years), but I’m pretty sure that you would not be a “cafeteria Catholic” by holding the views you have described. They are not mandatory in Catholicism, but they are certainly not forbidden.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Cairisti]

Well, as a former Southern Baptist, welcome to CAF!

Evolution isn’t a doctrine, so if you disagree with the Church’s stance on it, will not make you a “cafeteria” Catholic, at least imho. Do continue to read up on the CC and take the RCIA class. (You don’t have to convert, no one is going to force you to do anything. My parents, very Southern Baptists, had this idea that one would be forced to convert. )

 

[thomasf]

Evolution does not say humans evolved from apes.

You can believe the bible literally as you want. The church does not say you have to believe in evolution. It says that evolution does not conflict with the bible, and you may believe that man evolved. As long as you don’t believe the soul was a material creation. Or you can believe God made man out of clay and took a rib to make woman. You’ll find a little bit of both in the catholic faith.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Well, as a former Southern Baptist, welcome to CAF!

Evolution isn’t a doctrine, so if you disagree with the Church’s stance on it, will not make you a “cafeteria” Catholic, at least imho. Do continue to read up on the CC and take the RCIA class. (You don’t have to convert, no one is going to force you to do anything. My parents, very Southern Baptists, had this idea that one would be forced to convert. )

Thank everyone for their support and their opinions. Now I just have to face my parents. They are extremely devout Southern Baptists and trying to explain my views to them is going to be a large ordeal unto itself. I remember when two of my cousins converted from Southern Baptist to Presbyterian, my parents had a long theological debate with them when we came to visit for Thanksgiving a few years ago, and they tried very hard to convert them back. I know I’ll have to be very prepared, especially scripturally as Baptists always rely on it. I have a feeling this could get a little bit ugly, anyone have any advice and inspiration?

 

[amills]

Thank everyone for their support and their opinions. Now I just have to face my parents. They are extremely devout Southern Baptists and trying to explain my views to them is going to be a large ordeal unto itself. I remember when two of my cousins converted from Southern Baptist to Presbyterian, my parents had a long theological debate with them when we came to visit for Thanksgiving a few years ago, and they tried very hard to convert them back. I know I’ll have to be very prepared, especially scripturally as Baptists always rely on it. I have a feeling this could get a little bit ugly, anyone have any advice and inspiration?

Live your life in the most Christian way you can. They will know you are Christian by your love.

 

[Cat]

I’ve heard talks on Relevant Radio (Catholic) by Catholic apologists who argue against the theory of evolution. So I know that there are intelligent Catholics who disbelieve in evolution. I wish I could give you more specifics or names, but honestly, I was just listening in the car.

My husband and I are both in scientific fields (I’m a microbiologist/medical technologist and he’s in computers). Both of us believe that monophyletic evolution is a theory that is not backed up by facts.

I sat through several years of biology and chemistry classes at a secular university, and met several respected professors who didn’t accept monophyletic evolution as the correct explanation of orgins.

So refuting the theory of monophyletic evolution is not the mark of an idiot.

My husband subscribes to a journal called Journal of Creation. It is a science journal, not a religious one, and the articles are written by degreed scientists, not preachers. Try it.

It might be encouraging to remember that several of the world’s greatest scientists were Catholic. Pascal and Mendel are my favorites. It’s my theory that since Catholicism is true, not a distortion of Christianity, I think that Catholics are more likely to see the truth, and not force their own bias upon their scientific research.

My husband and I converted from evangelical Protestantism to Catholicism in 2004.

 

[Cairisti]

Thank everyone for their support and their opinions. Now I just have to face my parents. They are extremely devout Southern Baptists and trying to explain my views to them is going to be a large ordeal unto itself. I remember when two of my cousins converted from Southern Baptist to Presbyterian, my parents had a long theological debate with them when we came to visit for Thanksgiving a few years ago, and they tried very hard to convert them back. I know I’ll have to be very prepared, especially scripturally as Baptists always rely on it. I have a feeling this could get a little bit ugly, anyone have any advice and inspiration?

Sounds like they are really hard core SB’s. (Afterall, if they tried converting Presbyterians…) The only thing you can do is pray for them to be open and show them your Christian faith. Have you read Steve Ray’s book, “Crossing the Tiber”? He’s also a former Southern Baptist - his website is at catholic-convert.com where alot of us former SB’s hang out. Also, David Currie’s book, “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” is good. Hope it goes well, and we’ll be praying that all goes well for you. (The Rosary is always good too! )

 

[SemperFidelis]

I just want to thank everyone again for their encouraging words. This site has been a tremendous help to me. God Bless!

 

[keithkelley]

Thank everyone for their support and their opinions. Now I just have to face my parents. They are extremely devout Southern Baptists and trying to explain my views to them is going to be a large ordeal unto itself. I remember when two of my cousins converted from Southern Baptist to Presbyterian, my parents had a long theological debate with them when we came to visit for Thanksgiving a few years ago, and they tried very hard to convert them back. I know I’ll have to be very prepared, especially scripturally as Baptists always rely on it. I have a feeling this could get a little bit ugly, anyone have any advice and inspiration?

I just went down the same road that you are starting down a couple of months ago. My parents are devout Southern Baptists so it was a shock to them when God lead me home to the Catholic Church. When I first told them, they didn’t know how to react. A week later, they hit me with the typical misconceptions that Baptists usually spout. Then a week after that, they were completely supportive. If you answer their questions with scripural backup, it makes it very difficult for them to counter. Truth is Truth. Just dig your heels in the scripture and hang on. God will lead you through the storm!

 

[Godfollower]

Thank everyone for their support and their opinions. Now I just have to face my parents. They are extremely devout Southern Baptists and trying to explain my views to them is going to be a large ordeal unto itself. I remember when two of my cousins converted from Southern Baptist to Presbyterian, my parents had a long theological debate with them when we came to visit for Thanksgiving a few years ago, and they tried very hard to convert them back. I know I’ll have to be very prepared, especially scripturally as Baptists always rely on it. I have a feeling this could get a little bit ugly, anyone have any advice and inspiration?

Some of the apologetics books like Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on “Romanism” by “Bible Christians” (no, I don’t work for him; I just like the book ) would be helpful. When you study Catholic dogma, it all eventually goes back to Scripture – so knowing the answers will at least help your parents understand that you aren’t in a cult.

The “transition” will also be smoothed if you minimize the “Catholic” stuff for now. We aren’t required to pray the rosary, for instance, and we certainly don’t have to do it “in your face.” So you can skip it while you’re visiting them or do it quietly in your room at night, etc.

As for RCIA, many people go through the program but fail to join the Church at the end of the year. If you learn from the program that you just can’t do it (or, as happens more often than you might think, you just can’t do it right now), then you don’t join the Church. It’s as simple as that. We respect our faith too much to want to trick or force anyone into joining; we want only willing believers and seekers.

Anyway, good luck with your study of the Catholic Church and with your relationship with your parents.