Helpful discussion vs. harmful gossip

[Befink]

I was helping my brother establish his lent sacrifice which is to “avoid making fun of people”. *Essentially this is to avoid gossip or negative humor about an individual or group. *we realized we were having a hard time defining gossip and negativity so I thought I’d ask you for my own good as well as his.

He has a particularly challenging ex-wife. *There are times he feels the need to vent. *I get the sense his stories are told fairly. *We usually try to keep positive thoughts in mind that she may find greater peace but this is easier said than done sometimes. *We tried the definition of “would you say that in front of her?” but even then there are things she probably needs to hear which aren’t flattering.

I have another friend going through marital drama. *He tells me stories himself but then I go tell my wife. *That feels like gossip but it’s hard to find the border between helping a friend and gossiping with my wife. *Sometimes she has good insights I can take back to him.

I know gossip is a sin but finding it hard to figure out how one morally differentiates what is hurtful and what is helpful to share in conversation with either the first party or a third party. *Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[DavidFilmer]

You might find the Catechism helpful:

2477: Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause (someone) unjust injury. He becomes guilty:

• of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
• of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
• of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

2488: The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

2492: Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning persons’ private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights. Interference by the media in the private lives of persons engaged in political or public activity is to be condemned to the extent that it infringes upon their privacy and freedom.

Cheers!

 

[Boulder257]

I would also like to hear what others have to say about this since this is something I struggle with.

What constitutes venting and is that even okay?

Personally, I have tried to use the definition that if it doesn’t provide a positive outcome or at least have the potentional for a positive adjustment. This can be tricky though.

I would love to hear the answers to your question. Thanks for asking it!

 

[Leegal]

I was helping my brother establish his lent sacrifice which is to “avoid making fun of people”. *Essentially this is to avoid gossip or negative humor about an individual or group. *we realized we were having a hard time defining gossip and negativity so I thought I’d ask you for my own good as well as his.

He has a particularly challenging ex-wife. *There are times he feels the need to vent. *I get the sense his stories are told fairly. *We usually try to keep positive thoughts in mind that she may find greater peace but this is easier said than done sometimes. *We tried the definition of “would you say that in front of her?” but even then there are things she probably needs to hear which aren’t flattering.

I have another friend going through marital drama. *He tells me stories himself but then I go tell my wife. *That feels like gossip but it’s hard to find the border between helping a friend and gossiping with my wife. *Sometimes she has good insights I can take back to him.

I know gossip is a sin but finding it hard to figure out how one morally differentiates what is hurtful and what is helpful to share in conversation with either the first party or a third party. *Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

First scenario: ask yourself if you stopped discussing your brother’s ex wife with him, would that be a sin? No.

Second scenario: I think this is gossip. A friend is telling you of “his” drama. You are not hearing the other side. You then go and tell your wife, also presenting only one side of the story – his.

 

[Carlan]

First scenario: ask yourself if you stopped discussing your brother’s ex wife with him, would that be a sin? No.

Second scenario: I think this is gossip. A friend is telling you of “his” drama. You are not hearing the other side. You then go and tell your wife, also presenting only one side of the story – his.

Right, I say always keep such venting to myself. Offer only your own advice or sympathy,you assume the troubled one will do the looking elsewhere for anwers if you are unable to give what he is seeking,
Peace, Carlan

 

[Befink]

That’s what makes it so challenging. *The catechism (thanks David) makes points of respecting reputation, judgement without sufficient foundation, detraction without valid reason, etc. *Often we feel we have good foundation, reason, especially when hearing it from the source. *It’s on a case by case basis and requires a lot of good judgement. *It’s not surprising that the CCC can only do so much to explain it.

One case my brother also has is that his daughter (11) likes to tell funny stories about what her mom (my brother’s ex-wife) does. *He wonders what the right balance is there. *He doesn’t encourage her but she’s figured out quickly that he would listen given his divorce. *He also worries about telling her to stop because she may lose a healthy outlet for dealing with a difficult mother.

Often we hear stories of drama from one of the two people involved in it. *Typically we don’t even hear the other side of the story and it’s best not to ask for it since it’s really none of our business.

What is the right border?

Perhaps we participate in the conversation if the drama is bothering the story-teller. *You listen for the purpose of love and peace for all parties involved, not to make fun of them or wish them poor fortunes in any way. *Means you’re only there to offer listening, prayers and advice. *Then there is no reason to pass it on second hand unless the original story-teller doesn’t/wouldn’t mind and the third party also participates in love and peace. *Also one shouldn’t participate at all if they are likely to judge the offender. *We should never judge others anyway but in this case it’s a bigger problem that you will never hear their side of the story. *Making fun of people is OK if they wouldn’t be offended if they witnessed your comments.

What do you think about that? *Do I have it right? *Not going far enough? *Perhaps being too uptight? *What would you change?

 

[clmowry]

I was helping my brother establish his lent sacrifice which is to “avoid making fun of people”. *Essentially this is to avoid gossip or negative humor about an individual or group. *we realized we were having a hard time defining gossip and negativity so I thought I’d ask you for my own good as well as his.

He has a particularly challenging ex-wife. *There are times he feels the need to vent. *I get the sense his stories are told fairly. *We usually try to keep positive thoughts in mind that she may find greater peace but this is easier said than done sometimes. *We tried the definition of “would you say that in front of her?” but even then there are things she probably needs to hear which aren’t flattering.

I have another friend going through marital drama. *He tells me stories himself but then I go tell my wife. *That feels like gossip but it’s hard to find the border between helping a friend and gossiping with my wife. *Sometimes she has good insights I can take back to him.

I know gossip is a sin but finding it hard to figure out how one morally differentiates what is hurtful and what is helpful to share in conversation with either the first party or a third party. *Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

You might want to turn it into a positive. i.e. Pray for those you would normally gossip about or make fun of…

 

[twoangels]

This has been something I have wondered about in the past as well. I read not too long ago that women tend to be more prone to gossiping because by sharing their feelings with others, their bodies release high levels of oxytosin in their blood stream which relaxes them and eases tensions. As such, a temptation to gossip can come when you have poor ways of handling stress. You start looking for critical things to say and start intentionally pegging yourself as a victim for the oxytosin high.

I think though there is some legitimacy to venting and not venting. Sometimes not communicating and ignoring the things people do wrong against you can backfire on you. One thing I find interesting about the book Pride and Prejudice is that throughout the book most everyone is big on gossiping. However, when it comes to the serious sins of Mr. Wickam, everyone wants to keep their mouth shut and protect his reputation. This ultimately leads to some judgments that put the character of Lydia into the arms of Mr. Wickam. Mr. Darcy acknowledges at the end of the book that he should have been forthright.

Someone quoted the Catechism and I think that is a good guide. Gossip is doing something to willfully damage someone’s reputation. It is a way to express anger and seek revenge. It can be statements that are completely true but shared for the express purpose of seeking revenge, or in its uglier forms it can resort to lies.

This is distinguished from our need to seek advice from one another, our need to communicate about troubles rather than bury them all inside ourselves. It can also be important when the information is important to protect other people. Its difficult because in our motivation to gain legimate sympathy, we can toe the line of gossip and suddenly seek to express and harbor anger through gossip. I think often when a person strives to avoid gossip, that person may find themselves slipping into it after an extended period of legitimate venting.

 

[Befink]

Thanks for that TwoAngels. Some really great thoughts.

The statement that gossip is willful damage of reputation is true but much harder to interpret. We don’t typically get into conversations thinking “I want to willfully hurt someone’s reputation.” It’s usually a very subtle thing. We are venting about legitimate concerns about someone’s character. Next thing we know, we’ve harmed their reputation unnecessarily to feel better about ourselves.

As clmowry said, praying for people is important. I would think just the right intent of the gossiper and listener to pray for or wish a positive outcome on the subjects is a major step in the right direction. It keeps the conversation productive and avoids being overly negative. It also forces us to admit we don’t know everything when we ask God to handle the situation.

Amazing that gossip has to do with oxytosin and lack of ability to manage stress in other ways. While I still struggle with some doctrine, I’m amazed at how often the religious teachings of the Church match secular and scientific teachings which usually come together well after the teaching was determined. I’m guessing Moses had no idea what oxytosin was when he recorded the ten commandments including one about gossip.

The faithful take a lesson that gossip may not be a simple choice but is symptomatic of a larger problem, stress management. That said, venting should be allowed to a point but if it becomes too common, the person should rethink their stress and attitudes towards others.

Loved the P&P reference. Guess gossip through word of mouth and letters was the way it worked before Entertainment shows were invented Seems it’s important to share a story which promotes a positive outcome and avoids a potential negative outcome. Praying at the end is a worthy exercise (did Darcy do that? ).

Cheers