Helping Protestants what Catholic Devotions and Discipline are.

[Protestant101]

On Devotion:

So you are saying that calling Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you (taken from Luke 1:28) and Elizabeth’s own greeting in Luke 1:42 “blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” is detestable to the Lord? Gabriel said this from his own lips, and Elizabeth proclaim those words when she was filled with the Holy Spirit.

The biggest problem with you using the scriptures in this way is the false light that is thus shed on what is actually Bible truth. Gabriel and Elizabeth spoke these words to a Mary that was alive. Mary is now dead; Catholic “disciplines” here asks us to speak to the dead, and pray to a created being for our “salvation through Jesus.” And the sciptures do not condone speaking to the dead, or to any created being this way, for any kind of petition; especially if it is being done as a prayer for “help” or “salvation.”

Jesus said “I am the door;” meaning that we can approach Him directly and personally without any sort of mediator; “Mary” being included. "Devotions to, or “Disciplines” regarding “Mary” cannot be truth; if they promote Jesus as the second door, sometime after Mary. Jesus comes first, to all Christians. He is the Alpha and Omega of our faith experience.

All our “disciplines” should center in Christ, not Mary, or any other Bible character.

 

[St_Violet]

but her spirit is alive and well with Christ, there for really Mary is not Dead and because of her courage and obedience to GOD during life/death situations The Catholic Church has very good reason to honor her.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The biggest problem with you using the scriptures in this way is the false light that is thus shed on what is actually Bible truth. Gabriel and Elizabeth spoke these words to a Mary that was alive. Mary is now dead; Catholic “disciplines” here asks us to speak to the dead, and pray to a created being for our “salvation through Jesus.” And the sciptures do not condone speaking to the dead, or to any created being this way, for any kind of petition; especially if it is being done as a prayer for “help” or “salvation.”

In Our Catholic Tradition, Mary died, was raised from the dead, and assumed into heaven body and soul. We don’t believe Mary is dead. No bones of her was ever claim or found.

We don’t speak to the dead. We aren’t capable of doing that. We pray and ask them to “pray for us” much like what you do when you go in a prayer group and ask everyone to pray for you. We affirm what Jesus Christ said, “God, is the God of the living, not the dead.”

I’m not taken this into false light my friend.

Jesus said “I am the door;” meaning that we can approach Him directly and personally without any sort of mediator; “Mary” being included. "Devotions to, or “Disciplines” regarding “Mary” cannot be truth; if they promote Jesus as the second door, sometime after Mary. Jesus comes first, to all Christians. He is the Alpha and Omega of our faith experience.

All our "disciplines"

should center in Christ, not Mary, or any other Bible character.

I think you are confusing discipline with devotion my friend. Discipline is a rite like the language of the Mass or the vestments of the priest during the Liturgical year.

Devotions are like the Rosary and the prayer of the Divine Chaplet, or the Novenas and Litanies.

Whether you realized this or not, the rosary is a Christ-center mediative prayer which focuses on 4 Mysteries of the Life of Jesus Christ, the Joyful, the Luminous, the Sorrowful, and the Glorious Mysteries.

1. Joyful Mysteries:
2. The Annunciation. Fruit of the Mystery: Humility
   2.The Visitation. Fruit of the Mystery: Love of Neighbor
3. The Nativity. Fruit of the Mystery: Poverty
4. The Presentation of Jesus at the Temple. Fruit of the Mystery: Obedience.
5. The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple. Fruit of the Mystery: Joy in Finding Jesus, also known as Zeal
6. Luminous Mysteries
7. The Baptism of Jesus. Fruit of the Mystery: Openness to the Holy Spirit.
8. The Wedding at Cana. Fruit of the Mystery: To Jesus through Mary
9. Jesus’ Proclamation of the Kingdom of God. Fruit of the Mystery: Repentance and Trust in God
10. The Transfiguration. Fruit of the Mystery: Desire for Holiness
11. The Institution of the Eucharist. Fruit of the Mystery: Adoration
12. Sorrowful Mysteries
13. The Agony in the Garden. Fruit of the Mystery: Sorrow for Sin
14. The Scourging at the Pillar. Fruit of the Mystery: Purity
15. The Crowning with Thorns. Fruit of the Mystery: Courage
16. The Carrying of the Cross. Fruit of the Mystery: Patience
17. The Crucifixion. Fruit of the Mystery: Perseverance
18. Glorious Mysteries
19. The Resurrection. Fruit of the Mystery: Faith
20. The Ascension. Fruit of the Mystery: Hope
    3.The Descent of the Holy Spirit. Fruit of the Mystery: Love of God
    4.The Assumption of Mary. Fruit of the Mystery: Grace of a Happy Death
21. The Coronation of Blessed Virgin Mary. Fruit of the Mystery: Trust in Mary’s Intercession.

 

[guanophore]

Is it not true when a person prays they are conversing with something that is invisible to the eye?

I happen to be one of those verbal people who often talks to people who are not present. This is fortunate, most of the time. I do not consider my rantings “prayer”. There are many believers who have visible experiences of saints, personally, I have not. For me, conversing or praying to a saint would be invisible, just like telling off my boss while I am changing the oil in the truck would be done while he is not visible.

Do any other writers use this event as a description or teaching on prayer?

Oh, I am sure they do. Peter thought it was a sanctified experience, and that they should build booths on the spot. However, the reason it was brought up in this context was to demonstrate to you that people who have discarded the veil of flesh are awake, alive, and present in the communion of saints, and can interact with people on earth.

You mean when you are in a deep sleep you can hear conservations of your next door neighbors in a state of sleep?

I can’t say that has happened, but I can surely attest that when I leave the TV on it interferes with my sleep because it impinges upon my psyche.

Would you happen to have an example of this? I wasn’t aware that when a catholic prays to a saint that saint is able to communicate back to the person here and is aware of the circumstances.

There are a number of examples I could give you of this, ja4. I have considered it many times. It seems to me that if you studied Mary and the lives of the saints you would have a much richer understanding. However, since I know you already consider all these to be appearances of evil spirits,a nd not from God, I think I will refrain.

Does this same kind of thing happen today for catholics when they pray to saints?

Daily. However, you would reject these experiences as “speculations of men” becauae they are not listed in your bible.

Then this is really not about prayer but something else entirely.
I think it is a semantics problem, ja4. You believe that we should not “pray” to anyone but God. It is an “elderly” use of the word, and I think misleading. It would be more clear to say that we ask them for intercession. I don’t know that Jesus asked Moses and Elijah for intercession.

Have you read the Glories of Mary? There is also another devotional work by De Mont or something like this. These works are absolutely amazing in what they say. Are you open to discuss them?

Yes. Frankly I find them quite beyond me. I don’t think it would be useful to discuss them with me. I don’t think it would be useful for you to discuss them at all. It is clear that you already have your mind made up that they are pagan intrusions into the faith. I think your motive for discussing them is to try to pull Catholics away from their faith, and encourage them to join a Bible Church. you have already stated that the only way to grow in Christ is to read the Bible, so that pretty much leaves out all Catholic devotionals.

 

[guanophore]

You don’t understand protestant doctrine on this issue.

Oh, dear, ja4. Please do not assume that, because I presently defend Catholic doctrine, that I do not understand the Protesant point of view.

Protestants constantly pray for each other. What we don’t agree with catholics on is this idea that people who have died are also to be prayed to. That is an unbiblical pactice which has no foundation in scripture.

This is your personal opinion, and it is formed from doctrines separated from Apostolic Teaching. The Apostles teach us that nothing, including death, separates us from the Love of Jesus. The Apostles teach us that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, and because of this, we should strive to emulate them. The Apostles teach us that those in Christ are alive forevermore. The apostles teach us that there is one body, and persons who have fallen asleep in Christ are not separated from that Body.

When it comes to prayer and worship Jesus alone is sufficent. However He has so designed the church here that we are to encourage each other and pray for each other. Nowhere in scripture is anyone to pray to a created being.All prayers are only to be prayed to God.

You are contradicting yourself. Either Jesus alone is sufficient, or He designed a Church. If Jesus alone is sufficient, why would we be encouraged to pray for each other? Why have a Body on earth at all?

Worship is only for God. Asking others for intercession, which is what it means to “pray” to saints is no different whether the saint is here or at home with the Lord. Making this distinction is contrary to Apostolic Teaching. Are there other parts of the Apostles Creed you deny also?

 

[Protestant101]

In Our Catholic Tradition, Mary died, was raised from the dead, and assumed into heaven body and soul. We don’t believe Mary is dead. No bones of her was ever claim or found.

We don’t speak to the dead. We aren’t capable of doing that. We pray and ask them to “pray for us” much like what you do when you go in a prayer group and ask everyone to pray for you. We affirm what Jesus Christ said, “God, is the God of the living, not the dead.”

I’m not taken this into false light my friend.

Your play on words here is very confusing. First you say that a) we don’t speak to the dead, and b) we cannot speak to them; and then in the very next breath you say a) we pray and ask them!"

If that’s not talking to them, then I don’t know what is.

You say you are not taken into this “false light” meaning the very words of Jesus. he did say “I am the Door.” (Jo.10:9). Do you really want to call things in the Bible “false light?”

 

[Protestant101]

You are contradicting yourself. Either Jesus alone is sufficient, or He designed a Church. If Jesus alone is sufficient, why would we be encouraged to pray for each other? Why have a Body on earth at all?

Worship is only for God. Asking others for intercession, which is what it means to “pray” to saints is no different whether the saint is here or at home with the Lord. Making this distinction is contrary to Apostolic Teaching. Are there other parts of the Apostles Creed you deny also?

The “Apostle’s Creed” is not in fact, what the Apostles taught, in several aspects of this creed we see falsehoods that mirror Catholic doctrine, especially the part about Jesus going to hell; but I would be interested to see how/if this creed fits into Catholic “devotions” or “disciplines.”

Jesus alone is sufficient; for salvation. He built the Church, with Himself as the Head, and He never intended that prayer be used in the same sense that you insinuate with your comment above. Prayer is the opening of the heart to God as to a friend. Why wouldn’t Jesus let us know that it was OK for us to come to Him to pray for others, this is what He did too? Prayer is not a discipline or a devotion. It is a personal relationship with Christ where we come to Him alone with an honest heart, for Jesus alone “taketh away the sins of the world!” (Jo.1:29).

 

[justasking4]

Worship is only for God. Asking others for intercession, which is what it means to “pray” to saints is no different whether the saint is here or at home with the Lord. Making this distinction is contrary to Apostolic Teaching. Are there other parts of the Apostles Creed you deny also?

In catholic theology you have 2 kinds of worship. One to God called latria and the other to Mary and the saints called dulia.
Both are forms of worship. See article on this in the New Advent.
Not all worship is to God directly.

 

[guanophore]

In catholic theology you have 2 kinds of worship. One to God called latria and the other to Mary and the saints called dulia.
Both are forms of worship. See article on this in the New Advent.
Not all worship is to God directly.

This is a misunderstanding of the use of language, ja4. In this context, the word “worship” is the same as that used by Charles Dickens in his story of Scrooge. Certain members of society were honored by virtue of their position. Calling them “your worship” is the same as what we mean today in the courtroom when we say" your honor". We don’t consider the judge “God”, but we recognize that he is in a position worthy of special consideration.

 

[justasking4]

This is a misunderstanding of the use of language, ja4. In this context, the word “worship” is the same as that used by Charles Dickens in his story of Scrooge. Certain members of society were honored by virtue of their position. Calling them “your worship” is the same as what we mean today in the courtroom when we say" your honor". We don’t consider the judge “God”, but we recognize that he is in a position worthy of special consideration.

You might want to read your own sources on this. Here is what the New Advent says about worship;
**When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, **a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration

 

[Mannyfit75]

Protestant101:

Your play on words here is very confusing. First you say that a) we don’t speak to the dead,

We don’t speak to the dead like talking to them like you and me. That is what I mean.

b) we cannot speak to them; and then in the very next breath you say a) we pray and ask them!"If that’s not talking to them, then I don’t know what is.

We pray them because that is the means which we can we do. It it is the same manner why we pray to God often because it is th means to ask God for the things we hope to gain.

Praying to the saints isn’t sooth saying, or even summoning the dead. Necromancy is condemned by the Church, and it seem to me that you think Catholics summon the dead.

You say you are not taken into this “false light” meaning the very words of Jesus. he did say “I am the Door.” (Jo.10:9). Do you really want to call things in the Bible “false light?”

God is the God of the Living not the dead. He also said the prayers of the righteous are powerful. Why do you think Jesus preach eternal life to those who obey his commandments? Praying to the saints is no different than me asking you to pray for me.

Praying to the saints is more like Prayer Group which include the us the living and those saints in heaven. We do not ask the saints the same favor we ask for God. Many times, we ask them to pray for us. Prayer is fruitful.

 

[Protestant101]

We don’t speak to the dead like talking to them like you and me. That is what I mean.

We pray them because that is the means which we can we do. It it is the same manner why we pray to God often because it is th means to ask God for the things we hope to gain.

Praying to the saints isn’t sooth saying, or even summoning the dead. Necromancy is condemned by the Church, and it seem to me that you think Catholics summon the dead.

God is the God of the Living not the dead. He also said the prayers of the righteous are powerful. Why do you think Jesus preach eternal life to those who obey his commandments? Praying to the saints is no different than me asking you to pray for me.

Praying to the saints is more like Prayer Group which include the us the living and those saints in heaven. We do not ask the saints the same favor we ask for God. Many times, we ask them to pray for us. Prayer is fruitful.

Can you explain better then, why you call John 10:9 “false light?”

As far as I can see; if you pray to the saints; you talk to the dead. Like everyone else, the dead saints are dead, and they await the resurrection when we who are alive will meet them TOGETHER in the air, and forever thus be with Jesus…

 

[Zooey]

As far as I can see; if you pray to the saints; you talk to the dead. Like everyone else, the dead saints are dead, and they await the resurrection when we who are alive will meet them TOGETHER in the air, and forever thus be with Jesus…

Ah, I see; you believe in “soul sleep”. But that is an unbiblical doctrine, you see. It is based on using the Old Testament to make our concepts, instead of reading the plain words of Christ & His apostles.
Those who are physically dead, are more alive than they have ever been. They are “absent from the body, and present with the Lord”.

 

[mgrfin]

Can you explain better then, why you call John 10:9 “false light?”

As far as I can see; if you pray to the saints; you talk to the dead. Like everyone else, the dead saints are dead, and they await the resurrection when we who are alive will meet them TOGETHER in the air, and forever thus be with Jesus…

Where is the logic here? If they are dead, then how are they awaiting the resurrection? Their souls are alive, and in heaven, face to face with God.

Christians have been praying to the saints since the Catacombs. Protestants objected to Christianity’s traditions, saying they pray to Jesus. Well, so do we. We just believe in the “Communion of Saints”.

If you say the Nicene Creed, or the Apostles’ creed: 'we believe in the communion of saints".

peace

peace

 

[guanophore]

Can you explain better then, why you call John 10:9 “false light?”

As far as I can see; if you pray to the saints; you talk to the dead. Like everyone else, the dead saints are dead, and they await the resurrection when we who are alive will meet them TOGETHER in the air, and forever thus be with Jesus…

How do you explain the appearances of Samual, Moses, and Elijah?

Why does John describe saints in heaven praying?

 

[Protestant101]

Ah, I see; you believe in “soul sleep”. But that is an unbiblical doctrine, you see. It is based on using the Old Testament to make our concepts, instead of reading the plain words of Christ & His apostles.
Those who are physically dead, are more alive than they have ever been. They are “absent from the body, and present with the Lord”.

Please don’t take this personally; but I think there’s something wrong with your cat!!

You have just stated one of the most common misconceptions about our beliefs. I agree that we should certainly base our beliefs on “the plain word of Christ;” but much of what is in the NT is quoted from the Old Testament.

If we actually took what you said here literally; then the only books of the Bible we could read would be the four gospels, and the book of Acts in a few places.

The Bible is clear, and the Old Testament tells us “the dead know not anything;” (Eccl.9:4-5), and this is in complete agreement with Jesus, who actually did teach “soul-sleep.”

Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

 

[BrewMax]

You might want to read your own sources on this. Here is what the New Advent says about worship;
**When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, **a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration

very good point.