Helping Socialists?

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DL82

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I have met two very inspiring people, one running a free independent school in America teaching children in some of the most deprived areas of New Orleans, the other a collective resisting education cuts and organizing educational opportunities for university students in Scotland.

I can see the potential for the two to work together to really transform educational opportunities for kids in deprived areas of Glasgow, for the group to branch out beyond itself and its own students to help those who really need someone who is passionate about social change. I have it in my power to make this connection happen, it’s as simple as sending off an e-mail.

Both groups, however, are deeply influenced by Marxist, Socialist and Anarchist ideas. I worry that the evil which this represents outweighs any good they could do. And yet I don’t see it, I don’t think the kids see it either - all the kids will see is someone from a University with a passion for helping them, who will be offering them something different, more engaging, more real, than what they are being taught in the public education system. Isn’t that worth turning a blind-eye to some half-baked ideology?

Is it always a sin to work with or alongside Socialists?
 
I think “socialism” has been twisted by the media, especially.

Basically, if you think of it as a non-political ideology, it means we all help one another with a common goal.

Nobody gets where they are without the help of other people. In the USA, we have very wealthy people who give grudgingly to “charity” but wouldn’t consider getting their hands dirty.

We all have had teachers, government agencies, neighbors, churches, who have helped us along the way.

“I’ve got mine” is not a pleasant state of mind. At least not for long.
 
DL82 said:
I have met two very inspiring people, one running a free independent school in America teaching children in some of the most deprived areas of New Orleans, the other a collective resisting education cuts and organizing educational opportunities for university students in Scotland.

I can see the potential for the two to work together to really transform educational opportunities for kids in deprived areas of Glasgow, for the group to branch out beyond itself and its own students to help those who really need someone who is passionate about social change. I have it in my power to make this connection happen, it’s as simple as sending off an e-mail.

Both groups, however, are deeply influenced by Marxist, Socialist and Anarchist ideas. I worry that the evil which this represents outweighs any good they could do. And yet I don’t see it, I don’t think the kids see it either - all the kids will see is someone from a University with a passion for helping them, who will be offering them something different, more engaging, more real, than what they are being taught in the public education system. Isn’t that worth turning a blind-eye to some half-baked ideology?

Is it always a sin to work with or alongside Socialists?
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I guess one question you could use to help you decide what to do is are these organizations promoting things you find morally or ideologicaly objectionable? Are these organizations actually Socialist or Communist organizations or just run by a person or two that identifies that way?

I think if you can satifactorially answer those questions you should be able to decide if you can donate or assist them in some way. I think it’s one thing to perhaps support a group that is purely run by socialists but it’s another thing if one of the people happens to believe that.

If you still can’t help out perhaps there are Catholic or other groups that don’t have the same make up that you could support doing the same or similar work.

ChadS
 
Socialism does not build character in a society. It does not create the foundations for individual responsibility and charitable giving. Instead it fosters a sense of entitlement, reliance and resentment against those with more material possessions
 
Not all socialist programs are bad.Here in America we have a system called Medicare and except for some minor glitches its been very successful.If the teachers don’t actually teach lenin-Marxist-ideologies it may be sound.There views were pertained to whole societies.
 
It seems like the definition of socialism has been stretched very thin nowadays, especially where I live. Are they socialist as in, believe in community ownership of resources? For that, I don’t think that is evil at all. You might disagree with it on the practical level, but it does not run contrary to God’s teaching. Many programs run by the Church work similar, we just take it a step further, and focus on the spiritual, not just the material. 😃 What a difference that makes, IMHO!

If you mean full-blown anti-religion anti-authority Marxism, yeah I can see it to be problematic. If they start promoting the destruction of religion or the government then yes, it would be doing more harm then good…kids especially can be susceptible to that type of thinking, if it comes from an otherwise loving authority figure.
 
valentino said:
Not all socialist programs are bad.Here in America we have a system called Medicare and except for some minor glitches its been very successful.If the teachers don’t actually teach lenin-Marxist-ideologies it may be sound.There views were pertained to whole societies.
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Very successful? It’s bankrupt! Broke! And It’s dragging the republic down with it! So is social security, Medicaid, and every other centrally planned government handout program we have! Charity comes from the heart not from government at the point of the government gun. That’s not charity that’s tyranny. Yes they are all bad because its government forcing you to give up your earnings whether you can afford it or not. I’m not rich not even close. I made 32,000 last year and got back 200 in the tax return. I live pay check to pay check. If your precious government wouldn’t be stealing my earnings I might actually be able to get somewhere in life. But no that would be selfish! You want programs you want government doing anything more than defending borders securing our currency and our liberty then move to Cuba! Never once did Jesus say ,“hey let the Roman government point a spear at people and take a portion of their bread and fish to feed this mass of 5000!” No, he did it himself setting an example for us. We are to be charitable from our hearts not let government do it for us or force people into it!
 
How many more popes have to denounce socialism in all forms as intrinsically evil before everyone finally gets it? Yes every pope from Leo XIII right up to Benedict XVI has denounced marxism, socialism and communism IN ALL FORMS as evil in and of themselves! And since no catholic can cooperate willingly in intrinsically evil acts those who do so are in mortal sin. Sorry that’s the truth. Facts are stubborn things.
 
CCC - " 1883 Socialization also presents dangers.
Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative.
The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”

CCC - " 2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

CCC - " 1907 First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. Society should permit each of its members to fulfill his vocation. In particular, the common good resides in the conditions for the exercise of the natural freedoms indispensable for the development of the human vocation, such as “the right to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard . . . privacy, and rightful freedom also in matters of religion.”
 
@Anne:

Yes, socialism plain and simply is detrimental. And we have the advantage of being given a clear alternative from one of your quotes: “Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.” Mixed economies!
 
stmike38 said:
Very successful? It’s bankrupt! Broke! And It’s dragging the republic down with it! So is social security, Medicaid, and every other centrally planned government handout program we have! Charity comes from the heart not from government at the point of the government gun. That’s not charity that’s tyranny. Yes they are all bad because its government forcing you to give up your earnings whether you can afford it or not. I’m not rich not even close. I made 32,000 last year and got back 200 in the tax return. I live pay check to pay check. If your precious government wouldn’t be stealing my earnings I might actually be able to get somewhere in life. But no that would be selfish! You want programs you want government doing anything more than defending borders securing our currency and our liberty then move to Cuba! Never once did Jesus say ,“hey let the Roman government point a spear at people and take a portion of their bread and fish to feed this mass of 5000!” No, he did it himself setting an example for us. We are to be charitable from our hearts not let government do it for us or force people into it!
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You might disagree with these programs but they aren’t against the teaching of the Church. Taxes are a part of every government on Earth, aren’t objectionable to the Church and the use of these public funds for the education, medicine, etc. actually goes along with and is congruent with Church teaching.

Furthermore, they aren’t “socialism”. This is what I meant about the definition of “socialism” being spread thin…
 
Catmando said:
@Anne:

Yes, socialism plain and simply is detrimental. And we have the advantage of being given a clear alternative from one of your quotes: “Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.” Mixed economies!
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I’m not sure what you mean by “Mixed economies”. This is not used in the CCC.

It is imparative that we use each paragraph in the CCC in its entirety.

Likewise it is important that the CCC is taken in its entirety.
 
Aizi
Are they socialist as in, believe in community ownership of resources? For that, I don’t think that is evil at all.
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The CCC covers the evils of socialism very well.

The socialism that is condemned by Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931 has the following false theories:
  1. The Welfare State as the supreme objective.
  2. Everything belongs to the State, thus excluding the real rights to private property.
  3. The elimination of free enterprise in favour of state-controlled production and distribution.
  4. Denounced the principle of subsidiarity.
Religious societies that own goods in common for a spiritual ideal are not socialist.
 
stmike38 said:
Very successful? It’s bankrupt! Broke! And It’s dragging the republic down with it! So is social security, Medicaid, and every other centrally planned government handout program we have! Charity comes from the heart not from government at the point of the government gun. That’s not charity that’s tyranny. Yes they are all bad because its government forcing you to give up your earnings whether you can afford it or not. I’m not rich not even close. I made 32,000 last year and got back 200 in the tax return. I live pay check to pay check. If your precious government wouldn’t be stealing my earnings I might actually be able to get somewhere in life. But no that would be selfish! You want programs you want government doing anything more than defending borders securing our currency and our liberty then move to Cuba! Never once did Jesus say ,“hey let the Roman government point a spear at people and take a portion of their bread and fish to feed this mass of 5000!” No, he did it himself setting an example for us. We are to be charitable from our hearts not let government do it for us or force people into it!
Click to expand...
Your selfish rant about where you are in life is exactly why a safety net is important and compassionate. You talk about giving from the heart, yet how many parishes barely cover their costs; let alone, have the money to help the elderly survive.

The elderly have contributed to these plans all their working lives. If there is not enough money it is because of mismanagement of the fund by borrowing from it to support wasteful spending.

The government is us! What better way to spend our money than on us. Why do we want to send our money to support the rest of the world or bail out “too big to fail” businesses and deny the least in our society.

There is more than enough money in our country, we need to make certain who is getting it. Helping the least around the world is noble but far too much goes to corrupt governments and organizations more interested in sustaining themselves rather than helping people. We are fortunate to have many good Catholic charities run by faithful stewards.

Do not fall prey to slanders and misquotes found all around the media today.
 
DL82 said:
I have met two very inspiring people, one running a free independent school in America teaching children in some of the most deprived areas of New Orleans, the other a collective resisting education cuts and organizing educational opportunities for university students in Scotland.

I can see the potential for the two to work together to really transform educational opportunities for kids in deprived areas of Glasgow, for the group to branch out beyond itself and its own students to help those who really need someone who is passionate about social change. I have it in my power to make this connection happen, it’s as simple as sending off an e-mail.

Both groups, however, are deeply influenced by Marxist, Socialist and Anarchist ideas. I worry that the evil which this represents outweighs any good they could do. And yet I don’t see it, I don’t think the kids see it either - all the kids will see is someone from a University with a passion for helping them, who will be offering them something different, more engaging, more real, than what they are being taught in the public education system. Isn’t that worth turning a blind-eye to some half-baked ideology?

Is it always a sin to work with or alongside Socialists?
Click to expand...
In making your mind up, please carefully and prayerfully read the Encyclical of Leo XIII, Quod Apostolici Muneris (December 28, 1878) (On Socialism).

Before deciding to collaborate with them even on a project that seems appropriate, also consider the words of Our Lord:
[BIBLEDRB]Matt 12:30[/BIBLEDRB]

The problem is that education is a particularly dangerous area because young minds are molded.

For example, this video recently uploaded shows a group of first grade students in Cordova TN being taught a song where they are encouraged not to buy plastic products and are encouraged to boycott big business.

Whether you agree with that or not, why are first graders being taught this?
 
valentino said:
Not all socialist programs are bad.Here in America we have a system called Medicare and except for some minor glitches its been very successful.If the teachers don’t actually teach lenin-Marxist-ideologies it may be sound.There views were pertained to whole societies.
Click to expand...
Medicare is great except for bankrupting the country. When you turn 65 you get a charge card with no limits. The government says, here, take this and spend it wherever you want for medical services, no limit. With that sort of boost to the demand side, is it any wonder that prices for health care services keep rising?

And while docs and hospitals complain that the government never reimburses them enough, that card still represents guaranteed customers and guaranteed income to them. It keeps those people coming in, and more often than they would otherwise.

For medical equipment manufacturers, there’s no need to evaluate whether patients will be able to afford their products. Demand is guaranteed.
 
Aizi said:
It seems like the definition of socialism has been stretched very thin nowadays, especially where I live. Are they socialist as in, believe in community ownership of resources?
Click to expand...
This reminds me of a real life example of community ownership of resources. Decades ago what started out as a quasi-hippie community began with the community chartering itself as a legal entity. The community then bought a very large tract of land, on which individual members built separate houses. It was not a bad idea, and it worked pretty well for a long time. However, the houses tended not to be kept up very well because the individuals who built them and put in the sweat equity did not own them. The community did. One person I know who was a member of that community came into an inheritance, and also completed professional school, and decided to build a new and better home. It was built outside the borders of the community, for the obvious reason that if it was built inside the borders, she would not own it.
 
JimG said:
Medicare is great except for bankrupting the country. When you turn 65 you get a charge card with no limits. The government says, here, take this and spend it wherever you want for medical services, no limit. With that sort of boost to the demand side, is it any wonder that prices for health care services keep rising?

And while docs and hospitals complain that the government never reimburses them enough, that card still represents guaranteed customers and guaranteed income to them. It keeps those people coming in, and more often than they would otherwise.

For medical equipment manufacturers, there’s no need to evaluate whether patients will be able to afford their products. Demand is guaranteed.
Click to expand...
Medicare has been funded by the people using it for many years. It is not socialism.

It has limits, many limits. That is why insurance companies sell supplemental insurance to help cover those limits.

Health care prices rise due to many factors but as long as insurance companies and providers can pass on their inefficiencies and losses, it will only get worse.

A society is judged by how it takes care of the weak and elderly. It seems that the architects of Social Security and Medicare have listened to Jesus better than many “Catholics and other Christians” on this forum.
 
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