Henry VIII and the Anglican Church

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tomarin said:
I hope his home had a dungeon then. It would be hard to explain to one’s wife that those stains on the sofa were regrettable but necessary.
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He may have had s shed. Lots of men have sheds for hobbies
 
JimmyG88 said:
More didn’t get to the position of the King’s closest adviser by being a shrinking violet. He actually used to have heretics tortured at his home to save him travelling. They were a merry lot
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I think our only source for that is Foxe. I believe the actual claim was that he had them whipped in his garden.

From his point of view, this would have been an attempt to save their souls (if he did it).

There is no doubt that he participated in the prosecution of people for heresy. He claimed in one of his books that heresy persecution had begun only because heretics were socially disruptive, and that if they had been content to hold false views in private no one would have bothered them. But be that as it may, he certainly upheld and approved of the laws against heresy, whatever his personal involvement in interrogating heretics may or may not have been.

Edwin
 
7_Sorrows said:
Mary might have had to make some confessions also. we can’t judge how they lived their lives at that time in history. the crimes of ISIS today has been commonplace in other periods of history. we consider it uncivilized and barbaric by today’s standards.
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I think there’s an argument to be made that Christianity very gradually civilised the West’s morals, though not without detours and regressions. Our concept of human rights, whether explicitly theological or not, is ultimately grounded in a Judeo-Christian vision of human beings as both moral agents and ends-in-themselves. I don’t know whether it’s impossible for secular humanism to justify a human rights philosophy without the theological groundwork, but I don’t really want to find out!
 
Picky_Picky said:
Well I hope I know just a little more than I let on: that, after all, is the safer position to be in. But as to the Plantagenets, the truth is I found the Wars of the Roses so confusing that the only recourse long ago was to get those bloodlines off by heart. I have Mortimers and Beauforts coming out of my ears.
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Sounds like my biblio-problem. No wonder I am always glad to see your posts.

I rented a second 10’x15’ storage space today. May get the floor opened up a little in the living room, dining room, and library.
 
tomarin said:
Yes, that was a topic of a thread I was thinking of starting, whether there is such a thing as moral progress. It certainly seems so, but doesn’t that contradict original sin?
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Exactly. The spiritual rules are the same. But the world has become more civilised which is why murder is illegal. It was in 'enry’s time too except that they renamed murder as something else. A bit like what contemporary governments do on the subject of abortion. In fact, this is something that most people in power have done throughout history, when they wanted to get what they desired at any expense.
 
Novocastrian said:
I think there’s an argument to be made that Christianity very gradually civilised the West’s morals, though not without detours and regressions. Our concept of human rights, whether explicitly theological or not, is ultimately grounded in a Judeo-Christian vision of human beings as both moral agents and ends-in-themselves. I don’t know whether it’s impossible for secular humanism to justify a human rights philosophy without the theological groundwork, but I don’t really want to find out!
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Real life is theology.
 
Novocastrian said:
There are plenty!
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The difference is that with Biblical characters they had a conscience and went to our Creator with their regret, sorrow and confusion. As opposed to others who carried on in the same vein, bludgeoning their way through life.
 
JimmyG88 said:
More didn’t get to the position of the King’s closest adviser by being a shrinking violet. He actually used to have heretics tortured at his home to save him travelling. They were a merry lot
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You’ve been watching too many heretical films produced by the secular media recently. Who have sinisterly attempted to portray St. Thomas More in a bad light. Representatives from the Roman Catholic Church have actually spoken out against this film. I knew someone in this thread would cough it up though. St. Thomas More did actually die a martyr but I’m sure you’ll all get agreement from Yahoo Answers and Facebook groupies if you crave some tribal hugging.
 
7_Sorrows said:
Mary might have had to make some confessions also. we can’t judge how they lived their lives at that time in history. the crimes of ISIS today has been commonplace in other periods of history. we consider it uncivilized and barbaric by today’s standards.
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So…the actions of ISIS would have been acceptable behaviour in 'enry’s time and is only wrong due the fact that murder is illegal today?

I don’t think you meant it like that so might I suggest you do some rewording?!
 
friardchips said:
You’ve been watching too many heretical films produced by the secular media recently. Who have sinisterly attempted to portray St. Thomas More in a bad light. Representatives from the Roman Catholic Church have actually spoken out against this film. I knew someone in this thread would cough it up though. St. Thomas More did actually die a martyr but I’m sure you’ll all get agreement from Yahoo Answers and Facebook groupies if you crave some tribal hugging.
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Straw man to distract from your inability to explain why the death of More was murder but the death of Tyndale wasn’t.

Edwin
 
friardchips said:
You’ve been watching too many heretical films produced by the secular media recently. Who have sinisterly attempted to portray St. Thomas More in a bad light. Representatives from the Roman Catholic Church have actually spoken out against this film. I knew someone in this thread would cough it up though. St. Thomas More did actually die a martyr but I’m sure you’ll all get agreement from Yahoo Answers and Facebook groupies if you crave some tribal hugging.
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I have no idea AT ALL what you are talking about. Do you imagine More to be some sort of gentle soul then? I think you will find that by our standards you are very mistaken. I really think you should CALM DOWN and READ HISTORY 😉
 
Contarini said:
I think our only source for that is Foxe. I believe the actual claim was that he had them whipped in his garden.

From his point of view, this would have been an attempt to save their souls (if he did it).

There is no doubt that he participated in the prosecution of people for heresy. He claimed in one of his books that heresy persecution had begun only because heretics were socially disruptive, and that if they had been content to hold false views in private no one would have bothered them. But be that as it may, he certainly upheld and approved of the laws against heresy, whatever his personal involvement in interrogating heretics may or may not have been.

Edwin
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Pretty much Foxe, as a written origin, yes.

John Guy has a good chapter in his More bio, on the evolution of schools of thought as to More as heretic hunter. He leans to Marius’ opinions, I think.
 
More denied the whipping heretics charge, I just discovered. And I’m inclined to believe him over Foxe on this.

Again, that isn’t really the point at issue. People were executed for heresy, and More approved of and participated in this process. I don’t think he was personally cruel.

Edwin
 
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GKC said:
Pretty much Foxe, as a written origin, yes.

John Guy has a good chapter in his More bio, on the evolution of schools of thought as to More as heretic hunter. He leans to Marius’ opinions, I think.
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I think that in his Apologia he admitted to whipping or torture but he certainly had them locked up in his house.
 
GKC said:
Sounds like my biblio-problem. No wonder I am always glad to see your posts.

I rented a second 10’x15’ storage space today. May get the floor opened up a little in the living room, dining room, and library.
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Well, you live in a big country after all.
 
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JimmyG88 said:
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I think that in his Apologia he admitted to whipping or torture but he certainly had them locked up in his house.
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Having people locked in your house wasn’t the worst of sins a Tudor courtier could commit. But I really dislike this area of debate. More was a great man, but so was Tyndale. Why do we have to spend our time weighing the horrors of the persecution by one side over the horrors of the persecution by the other? Can’t we just agree that some dreadful things were done by Catholics, by heretic Catholics like Henry, and by Protestants? Is it not a desecration of the memory of Thomas More to use his martyrdom as some kind of bludgeon?
 
Picky_Picky said:
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Having people locked in your house wasn’t the worst of sins a Tudor courtier could commit. But I really dislike this area of debate. More was a great man, but so was Tyndale. Why do we have to spend our time weighing the horrors of the persecution by one side over the horrors of the persecution by the other? Can’t we just agree that some dreadful things were done by Catholics, by heretic Catholics like Henry, and by Protestants? Is it not a desecration of the memory of Thomas More to use his martyrdom as some kind of bludgeon?
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I agree fundamentally but I can’t agree that his canonisation should mean that he is regarded as perfect or worse still anodyne. He wasn’t a great one for seeing the other side of the argument himself really LOL
 
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