Henry VIII and the Anglican Church

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It is often agreed by historians that predominate reason for Henry VIII’s formation of the Church of England was the Pope’s refusal to grant Henry an annulment for his marriage to Catherine, so that he could marry Anne Boleyn. Of course, Henry later had Anne beheaded so that he could again remarry.

For me, this makes the whole Anglican/ Episcopalian church seem slightly hypocritical, being created for political reasons. What is your opinion on the actions of Henry and what reasons do you give to support the legitimacy of your church?
Politics and money were(are) intimately connected. I think the money god was a pretty powerful motivator for Henry.

Henry VIII and the Reformation - The dissolution of the monasteries
faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/361/361-09.htm

A few of the ‘Consequences of the Dissolution’. (extracted from the article)
"
  • The immediate effect of the Dissolution was to transfer vast tracts of land to the Crown. Monastic land was worth at least three times as much as existing royal landholdings. Henry also acquired vast amounts of gold and silver plate, worth as much as one million pounds.
-Before the Reformation, 25 abbots had sat in the House of Lords; - all of them lost their places leaving the secular lords in a majority over the Bishops (who continued to sit).
  • The Dissolution of the monasteries involved a certain amount of physical destruction: buildings decayed because the lead was seized from the roofs; libraries were broken up and sold off. Moreover, traditional charitable functions of feeding and housing travelers ceased.
  • Not only the Crown gained by the Dissolution - many royal administrators and clients lined their pockets with monastic money.
The seizure of monastic land gave the Crown the possibility of complete financial independence. Had Henry VIII exploited it prudently, he and his successors might never have needed to call Parliament again.

But from the very beginning, and particularly between 1543 and 1547, Henry sold most of the land to pay for extravagant wars with France and Scotland.
  • The land was bought by merchants, by yeomen syndicates, by noblemen, and - overwhelmingly - by neighboring gentry families.
  • Nobles and gentlemen also bought the impropriated tithes and advowsons, and so strengthened their hand in parish affairs.
  • The enrichment of the gentry increased their power and independence relative to both Church and Crown. It also created a powerful pressure group with a vested interest in ensuring that the old Roman Catholic church was never fully restored.
    "
Also
Dissolution of the Monasteries
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Monasteries
 
I agree. I wonder who is advisers were and I wonder if Henry questioned his own actions before he died?
Well, there were a bunch. Thomas Cromwell, of course, is one of the most [in]famous and was (as Wolf Hall demonstrates very well) sort of the “consigliere” like Robert Duvall in the Godfather (and thinking of the Tudor monarchy as a Mafia family is not such a bad approach). Polydore Vergil was a scholar/historian who helped provide the intellectual justification. Cranmer gave spiritual justification, based on a Protestant theology that Henry resisted accepting in full. So it was all complex and messy.

Edwin
 
I am opposed to a man beheading his wife so that he can marry another.
Henry as granted a decree of nullity as to his marriage to Anne Boleyn, by Cranmer, as the Archbishop of Canterbury, shortly before Anne’s execution, shortly before the marriage to Jane Seymour.
 
Henry as granted a decree of nullity as to his marriage to Anne Boleyn, by Cranmer, as the Archbishop of Canterbury, shortly before Anne’s execution, shortly before the marriage to Jane Seymour.
I am also opposed to husbands going around and beheading their ex-wives.
 
Even in these two short paragraphs there is much scope for disagreement, as so often in matters historical. But to address simply the question in your last sentence, if I can be so presumptuous as to attempt to speak for the whole motleydom of Anglicanism, I doubt if most Anglicans are particularly approving of Henry — he was a tough man doing a tough job in tough times, and although in many ways brilliant, I don’t think you’d want to get too close to him. But they will not, I think, doubt the legitimacies of their churches on those grounds, because the Church of England does not believe it was formed by Henry, but was the church present in England since the early centuries AD.
Man. I go out of town for a weekend and look what happens.

I’ll comment when I get to the end of this stuff.
 
I am also opposed to husbands going around and beheading their ex-wives.
Anne was executed, officially, after being found guilty of adultery, incest and high treason. Maybe, maybe not so much. Historians tend to give her the benefit of the doubt. Of all my Tudor bios, I always recommend J.J. Scarisbrick’s HENRY VIII, for understanding what was going on.
 
Two reasons really.
Theologically Henry had to get a Papal dispensation to marry Catherine in the first place. As such, Henry’s attempt to say the marriage was invalid was not accepted.

Politically, Charles V who was the Holy Roman Emperor, and protector of Pope Clement VII, was also Catherine of Aragons’ nephew. He wasn’t going to allow the shame of the annulment occur to his aunt. Since he was Pope Clements’ protector, the Pope wouldn’t go with it either. Turns out Henry got what he wanted anyway.
True, in general. Details will follow.
 
The basis for Henry’s request was that Catherine had been married to Henry’s brother Arthur. In fact Church law did forbid such a marriage, and Henry had received a dispensation. Henry was basically asking the Pope to nullify his earlier dispensation. That’s the one sense in which what Henry was doing linked up to Protestantism. He claimed that the (first) marriage had been contrary to divine law and thus the Pope couldn’t give a dispensation covering it.

GKC can cover the details better than I, but I understand that Henry actually had a more persuasive canon-law approach available and chose not to go with it.

So the Pope had good grounds for refusing the request–he was basically being asked to say that he hadn’t had the authority to give the dispensation in the first place. But political factors were definitely at work as well–the Pope didn’t want to offend Charles V, Catherine’s nephew, whose mutinous armies had just sacked Rome.

Ediwn
This is what I get for spending the weekend in Chattanooga.

Yes, as to the better argument. Maybe I’ll get to it.
 
My canon law is very poor, but as I understand it, Henry received a papal dispensation to marry Catherine of Aragon, who had been his brother’s wife. It is impossible to annul a marriage for which a dispensation had previously being granted.
Henry argued the dispensation from Julius was ultra vires, being of divine, not Church origin, and based on the Levetical Prohibition. Not as strong as another argument he might have used, but as strong as was customary, for folk in his position, back in the day.
 
Man. I go out of town for a weekend and look what happens.

I’ll comment when I get to the end of this stuff.
I thought you must have been off somewhere, and I had to fill in as your inferior substitute:D

Have you seen or read Wolf Hall by any chance? Any comments?

Edwin
 
There isn’t anything in current canon law against it, but there was at the time. See this article, which is heavily biased in favor of Catholicism (in fact I do not recommend it at all except for the discussion of canon law). As the CA article notes, since Catherine said that she was still a virgin when she married Henry, all that was necessary was a “dispensation for public decency.” I.e., the first marriage hadn’t been consummated, but since she was publicly seen to have been married a dispensation was still necessary. One of Henry’s arguments was that Catherine had been lying about the virginity thing, I believe.

Edwin
Not exactly.
 
I thought you must have been off somewhere, and I had to fill in as your inferior substitute:D

Have you seen or read Wolf Hall by any chance? Any comments?

Edwin
WOLF HALL and BRING UP THE BODIES are in the to read real soon stack, among the 90 plus books surrounding my reading chair. You should see the house. Esp. with the books I brought back signed from Chatanooga, maybe 80+ SF. I got in 30 mins ago and look what I find.

And I was expecting a quick pipe to relax.

I’ll be back.
 
In general, C&P from one of my many posts on this subject. I’m determined to go smoke that pipe.

Henry sought to do what was commonplace at the time. He sought a decree of nullity with respect to his marriage to Catherine, in order to make a marriage that would provide him with a legitimate male heir (a thing that had been worrying him for years) and also permit him to scratch an itch that he had recently acquired, re: Anne Boleyn. Seemed reasonable to him.

With respect to the system as it was worked in his day, it was not only reasonable, it was unexceptional. It happened daily. Such was precisely the way in which dynastic marriages were made and unmade, for purposes of state, during this period (Henry’s sister Margaret received a decree of nullity for purely personal reasons, 2 weeks before Henry filed his own case). It was how the system was set up to function.

But to make it happen, Henry had to submit his case (causa) to the system, and wait for a decree of nullity, which he was fully justified in expecting to be forthcoming. His case, at his insistence, was based on the concept of an impediment of affinity in his marriage to Catherine, arising from the prohibition in Leviticus against a man marrying his brother’s wife. This was what as generally known as an impediment of affinity (of which there were many kinds and degrees. Because of this impediment, Julius II had issued a dispensation permitting Henry to marry Catherine in the first place. But a Pope’s authority to dispense impediments was not absolute. Henry’s case maintained that the prohibition was Scriptural, God’s law, not positive Church law, and thus was beyond a Pope’s power to dispense. There are impediments like that; no one can dispense to permit a son to marry his mother for example (canonically, an impediment of consanguinity in the first degree, direct). This meant that he was saying that Julius had made an error and the dispensation exceeded his authority (was ultra vires). In addition, Church rulings on whether the Levitical prohibition was natural or Divine law had varied over the years. Sometimes it was held to be within the Pope’s authority, sometimes, not.

While Henry had a reasonable case, then, it was not an exceptionally strong one. Normally, it would not need to be. And Clement was not an exceptionally strong Pope. As the world turned in those days, that wouldn’t usually matter. However …

While Henry’s argument on the matter was fairly good (not as good as he might have made, in that he did not argue on the basis of an undispensed diriment impediment of the public honesty in his marriage to Catherine, the strongest point he had, see below, but on the weaker Levitical prohibition, against marrying a brother’s widow), it faced the daunting figure of Charles V, Catherine’s nephew. And given the real-politic in that situation, no way was a Pope going to rule for Henry.

There was actually a stronger case lurking in Henry’s history (not that either case would have gotten him the decree of nullity; politics and military power trump canonical law). His stronger case, as Cardinal Wolsey saw, lay in a class of impediments called the justice of public honesty. Without getting into too many technical details, this meant that if a marriage was contracted and consummated between A and B, two types of impediments might arise for person C later wishing to marry A or B. That is, there was the potential for an impediment of affinity, which arose from the consummation of the marriage (affinity arose from the act of coitus, normally, but not necessarily, through marriage), or of the justice of public honesty, which arose from the betrothal/marriage contract.

At the time, the rule was that if a valid marriage was contracted, and consummated, and later a dispensation was sought for someone who would be impeded from marrying A or B, the dispensation need only specifically state that the affinity impediment was dispensed, and the impediment of public honesty was thereby dispensed, implicitly. But, if Catherine and Arthur’s marriage was not consummated, as Catherine maintained all along, and as was likely true, then the justice of public honesty must be explicitly dispensed. Julius didn’t do that. And hence there was a good case for Henry. Precisely the sort of crack the system was designed to allow.

Henry didn’t pursue that, and it didn’t really matter. Given the relationship between Clement and Charles, and Charles and Catherine, no way was Henry going to get a decree of nullity, no how. Clement VII refused Henry’s request for a decree of nullity, after a long time stalling, hedging and wishing the whole thing would go away, primarily because of the relationship between the Papacy and Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor, in 1527. Said relationship was primarily one of captive and captor, after the sack of Rome following the battle of Pavia. Catherine was Charles’ aunt, and had not only appealed to Rome against the attempt to declare her marriage with Henry invalid (as was her right. Clement hoped mightily that the issue would not come to Rome, but be resolved in the English ecclesiastical courts. Or that Catherine would take the veil. Or that someone would just drop dead). She also appealed on a family basis to Charles, the most powerful ruler in Europe. Charles told her not to worry. It wouldn’t happen. It didn’t. An Emperor trumps a King. And an emperor controlling a Pope is stronger still. So Henry didn’t get his decree. He got a Church, instead. He thought it was a good idea, at the time.

What it all means is that, in effect, the system worked as designed. It was supposed to blend the sacramental and the political, and it did. But the political this time was based on the figure and power of Charles V. And Henry was a King, and had some political power of his own. Soon after, he had a Church, too.

Sort of covers the field. There is more.

Pipe time.
 
I thought you must have been off somewhere, and I had to fill in as your inferior substitute:D

Have you seen or read Wolf Hall by any chance? Any comments?

Edwin
careful-you are entering dangerous territory. I was called an angliophile in another thread on Wolf Hall. and I don’t think they meant it in a nice way. 😃

you did a good job filling in for GKC. glad he showed up because he knows this subject very well!
 
careful-you are entering dangerous territory. I was called an angliophile in another thread on Wolf Hall. and I don’t think they meant it in a nice way. 😃

you did a good job filling in for GKC. glad he showed up because he knows this subject very well!
Hank and his Great Matter have been a hobby of mine for over 15 years.
 
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