Here is a way to prove Catholic claims false...

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O.S. Luke:
You haven’t answered MY question: why is a Catholic asking these things and offering to convert if given proof?

O+
It is called intellectual honesty. How can I expect a person to be open to change when I am not? If I am not open to changing what I believe I am not intellectually honest.

Also, who would want to believe something if they were shown it was not true? Not me.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
It is called intellectual honesty. How can I expect a person to be open to change when I am not? If I am not open to changing what I believe I am not intellectually honest.

Also, who would want to believe something if they were shown it was not true? Not me.

Peace
Dennis… I’m okay with you being like that. But as a rule, I’m not sure most Catholics would agree with you on that, that’s all. Most Catholics embrace their Church has having ALL the truth, and the case is closed.

It is mainly for this reason that I’m not Catholic nor a priest.

Pax vobiscum,

O+
 
dennisknapp wrote:
It is called intellectual honesty. How can I expect a person to be open to change when I am not? If I am not open to changing what I believe I am not intellectually honest.
Also, who would want to believe something if they were shown it was not true? Not me.
The question actually doesn’t come down to “proof” but to authority. How much proof do we have that Jesus is all the Church claims him to be? How do we know if the Bible is reliable? How can we be sure of anything? Can you, all on your own, prove anything of such antiquity and importance? I know I can’t. But, I have faith that the Church is correct because I have faith in the Founder. I believe Jesus established his Church and that he meant to keep his promises to his Church. That’s what it all really boils down to.

O.S. Luke wrote:
Dennis… I’m okay with you being like that. But as a rule, I’m not sure most Catholics would agree with you on that, that’s all. Most Catholics embrace their Church has having ALL the truth, and the case is closed.
It is mainly for this reason that I’m not Catholic nor a priest.
Pax vobiscum,
But, dear friend, you are wrong about this. The Church has never declared that the search for the whole of the truth is closed and a done deal. Theologians, Bible scholars, archaeologists, anthropologists, etc. are still searching out the truth in their particular fields of interest. If they weren’t we may as well close down the universities and shut down several functions of the Vatican. I think you need to inquire into this a bit further. 😉
 
O.S. Luke:
Dennis… I’m okay with you being like that. But as a rule, I’m not sure most Catholics would agree with you on that, that’s all. Most Catholics embrace their Church has having ALL the truth, and the case is closed.

It is mainly for this reason that I’m not Catholic nor a priest.

Pax vobiscum,

O+
For anyone to claim to know all truth with 100% certainty is absurd. Only God has all knowledge. I am a limited human being seeking the truth. I go wherever it leads me. If I am shown that what I believe is false I will change. Do I believe the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth? Yes. I believe this through both faith and reason. I am no fideist or pure rationalist, but I use the tools of both to come to a greater understanding of the Truth.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
If Protestants want to get anywhere with Catholic they must do so using more than just Scripture. They must use the Fathers and the Councils, as well. Catholics take what has been taught by previous Christians very seriously, the earliest Christians even more so. For they are the closest link we have to the Apostles and Christ apart from the limited information we receive from Sacred Scripture.

Peace
Not true. When I left to explore evangelical Protestant Christianity, I had already studied the Early Church Fathers, and understood Catholic theological doctrine regarding the relationship between scripture and tradition. I left because my experiences in the Catholic community drove me into the arms of evangelical Protestants, not because of problems with Catholic theology.

I returned, not because of profound theological difficulties with evangelicals, but because the Catholic faith seemed more firmly grounded and less subject to the reformations and directives guided by the whims of a particular pastor. Unfortunately, my parish pastor operates out of his own progressivist bias and has surrounded himself with like-minded people by replacing those he considered “tired and old” with “new blood.”

While I am presently active in this parish, I am hoping to cut back my role significantly.
 
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Della:
dennisknapp wrote:

The question actually doesn’t come down to “proof” but to authority. How much proof do we have that Jesus is all the Church claims him to be? How do we know if the Bible is reliable? How can we be sure of anything? Can you, all on your own, prove anything of such antiquity and importance? I know I can’t. But, I have faith that the Church is correct because I have faith in the Founder. I believe Jesus established his Church and that he meant to keep his promises to his Church. That’s what it all really boils down to.
Yes, but the authority has to have creditability. You just don’t assent to someone because they claim authority. They have to have valid authority, and that sometimes requires proof.

How do you prove it? Evidence. If there is substantial evidence, the claim could be true. It may not be true, but it could be.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
Yes, but the authority has to have creditability. You just don’t assent to someone because they claim authority. They have to have valid authority, and that sometimes requires proof.

How do you prove it? Evidence. If there is substantial evidence, the claim could be true. It may not be true, but it could be.

Peace
So, what evidence do you put forward for believing the claims of the Catholic Church? History? Reason? Effects? Foundations? I’d say all of these and more, wouldn’t you?
 
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Tibbar:
Not true. When I left to explore evangelical Protestant Christianity, I had already studied the Early Church Fathers, and understood Catholic theological doctrine regarding the relationship between scripture and tradition. I left because my experiences in the Catholic community drove me into the arms of evangelical Protestants, not because of problems with Catholic theology.

I returned, not because of profound theological difficulties with evangelicals, but because the Catholic faith seemed more firmly grounded and less subject to the reformations and directives guided by the whims of a particular pastor. Unfortunately, my parish pastor operates out of his own progressivist bias and has surrounded himself with like-minded people by replacing those he considered “tired and old” with “new blood.”

While I am presently active in this parish, I am hoping to cut back my role significantly.
I know many who have left the Church because of bad experiences, my wife is one of them. She, like you, has since returned, but the journey was not an easy one. Hopefully the truth wins out and those who have left eventually return.

Peace
 
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Della:
So, what evidence do you put forward for believing the claims of the Catholic Church? History? Reason? Effects? Foundations? I’d say all of these and more, wouldn’t you?
Yes, I would say the evidence from those are good, but I would also include the resurrection. Without the resurrection all we believe would be meaningless.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
I know many who have left the Church because of bad experiences, my wife is one of them. She, like you, has since returned, but the journey was not an easy one. Hopefully the truth wins out and those who have left eventually return.

Peace
I continue to have “bad experiences” in the Church. I’m just not motivated enough to leave right now because I’m afraid that I will abandon what little faith I have left if I do. I am dismayed with the Catholic church, which, in practice, is a bit too liberal for my tastes, and Protestants don’t seem to have anything better to offer as I’m not into that “Purpose-Driven” drivel.

The way I see it Church should be a place where acknowledged sinners in need of God’s mercy can come together, be reminded of the truth through the teaching of the Scriptures, and encourage one another in the difficult and often discouraging struggle to pursue goodness and truth.This hasn’t been my experience since returning to the Catholic Church. Pastor’s message is that everyone is good, and that the only evil in the world is the result of “those mean spirited conservatives and Republicans like Bush and Cheney.”

:eek:
 
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Tibbar:
I continue to have “bad experiences” in the Church. I’m just not motivated enough to leave right now because I’m afraid that I will abandon what little faith I have left if I do. I am dismayed with the Catholic church, which, in practice, is a bit too liberal for my tastes, and Protestants don’t seem to have anything better to offer as I’m not into that “Purpose-Driven” drivel.

The way I see it Church should be a place where acknowledged sinners in need of God’s mercy can come together, be reminded of the truth through the teaching of the Scriptures, and encourage one another in the difficult and often discouraging struggle to pursue goodness and truth.This hasn’t been my experience since returning to the Catholic Church. Pastor’s message is that everyone is good, and that the only evil in the world is the result of “those mean spirited conservatives and Republicans like Bush and Cheney.”

:eek:
Being faithful is never easy. In fact, Christ told us it would be very difficult. Know that this trial is only temperary and people are there who share your frustration and hope for new day to dawn. We are the future of the Church. The liberals had their turn. Let’s be a light to the world, a city on hill.

Peace
 
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Tibbar:
I continue to have “bad experiences” in the Church. I’m just not motivated enough to leave right now because I’m afraid that I will abandon what little faith I have left if I do. I am dismayed with the Catholic church, which, in practice, is a bit too liberal for my tastes, and Protestants don’t seem to have anything better to offer as I’m not into that “Purpose-Driven” drivel.

The way I see it Church should be a place where acknowledged sinners in need of God’s mercy can come together, be reminded of the truth through the teaching of the Scriptures, and encourage one another in the difficult and often discouraging struggle to pursue goodness and truth.This hasn’t been my experience since returning to the Catholic Church. Pastor’s message is that everyone is good, and that the only evil in the world is the result of “those mean spirited conservatives and Republicans like Bush and Cheney.”
In the Sumatra Earthquake-Tsunami day after Christmas, 2004, the ones who were there helping people were CATHOLIC MISSIONARIES!!! They have always been there, living in poverty and helping the poor in their corporal and spiritual needs. So when disaster struck, they were already there. Catholic Missionaries live in the poorest of the poorest sectors and nooks and crevices of countries. Those poorest that live in cardboard boxes and the streets, Catholic Missionaries know and see them everyday. You remember Mother Teresa of Calcutta and her nuns. Mother Teresa had an appointment with Pope John Paul II. She saw a dying dirty poor man on the street and instead of going to the Pope, she stopped, went down the vehicle, cleaned the man, even picking up the worms on the wounds of the man with her fingers, stayed with the man till his death!!! For in such a man, Mother Teresa saw Jesus.

Actually, Mother Teresa is only one example. There are many many others there in the crevices and nooks of the earth that you have never heard. But God knows. Maybe you can join them and find fulfillment in life as a Catholic over there!!!

:eek:
 
The Eurasian:
But God knows. Maybe you can join them and find fulfillment in life as a Catholic over there!!!

While I wouldn’t place limits on where God might lead me, perhaps the most charitible thing I can think of doing now is to seek out like minded parishoners, and to form a bloc that will make life absolutely unbearable for the Pastor in the hope that he will submit his resignation or seek re-assignment elsewhere where his talents would be more appreciated.

Did I mention that I recently noticed some, how should I put this, magazines with pictures of scantily clad men on them over at the Rectory? My suspicions have only been further confirmed.
 
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