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wabrams
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The original question is merely baiting. ruzz actually had a good point: how do we know if any of it is accurate. We know the point of view of the early church fathers, but how biased was their writing?
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dennisknapp
Guest
More Christ and less Catholicism as a structure? This is a false dichotomy. Christ is the Church, we are the body of Christ.
And I am not baiting fellow Christian I am encouraging debate. Is this not important? Is truth not important?
What is wrong with asking the questios I am asking? What is wrong with understanding a particular view of history? I am not condemning anyone. Why the personal attack?
Peace
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dennisknapp
Guest
Total Ad Hominem. Personal attacks are contrary to fruitful debate. I am seeking knowledge not bigotry. I once was a Protestant and have many Protestant friends that I respect greatly. Why would you say I am a bigot?
My posts are meant to draw people for a debate. The subjects I choose are ones that are at the core of what divides Protestants and Catholics. They need to be discussed.
Peace
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dennisknapp
Guest
How was the original question baiting? If I ask about George Washington am I baiting someone? This is totally diverting the issue, please stay on topic.
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deb1
Guest
I don’t see how this post is nasty and hate filled. WHy would asking the Prots. view of church history be a form of Prots. bashing? I think that it all depends on the reasons that you come on the board. If you are curious about Catholicism, then this seems like an interesting give and take. Sometimes, I admit, that give and take gets a bit messy but overall it seems to work.
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gelsbern
Guest
Just remember, in all wars, the winner gets to write the history.
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wabrams
Guest
It’s baiting b/c most threads you start end with you trying to rip apart Protestants limb from limb. I see a trend on other threads where all you do is attack Protestants. Not a very good way to profess your faith. I’m not diverting from the topic when the conclusion of this thread will be no different than any other one you’ve started. Sorry to sound rude, but I’m calling it like I see it.
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wabrams
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BTW, are you going to answer my question from post # 12?
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dennisknapp
Guest
I asked you to clarify this:
“I’m Protestant and I know the Catholic Church’s history. To me the only parts that are sketchy are from a short while after Jesus’ death until the Pope in Rome actually had influence outside of Rome (452 AD?).”
What happened to make them sketchy? What is your take on the historical record?
Peace
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Kevan
Guest
I think that dennisknapp is well within his rights. The board’s topic is noncatholic religions and he’s politely offering a debate topic. The only reason it might look like bashing, in my opinion, is because it’s a hard question.
FWIW, I believe wabrahams identified the point of divergence:
wabrahams:
FWIW, I believe wabrahams identified the point of divergence:
wabrahams:
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dennisknapp
Guest
I am not attacking, I am debating. There is a difference. And I get as good as I give. You will notice this if you read the dialog between michaelp and myself.
We are discussing truth claims here, nothing more. If you believe something to be true you should be able to defend yourself, correct? Are we not the be ready in season and out to give an answer to the hope that lies within us?
Emotions need not get high and are unproductive to the work at hand.
Peace
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dennisknapp
Guest
Thanks Kevan.
I asked a honest question. It is up to those who claim things like this:
Originally Posted by wabrahams
We know the point of view of the early church fathers, but how biased was their writing?
To provide proof for such a claim. For why should we question them in the first place unless we are coming at them with preconcieved notions.
Peace
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Respectfully, Dennis, I’ve lurked and occasionally posted here, and I must say that you are the king of the Strawman Fallacy and Baiting. The very tenor of your questions illustrates this point, does it not?:
“Here Is Your Chance, Protestants!”
“Protestants, Just What Did the Early Church Look Like?”
“Calling On All Protestants On This Forum”
“Desperately Seeking Evidence for Sola Scriptura in Church History”
Look at one of your earlier quotes in this thread: *And I am not baiting fellow Christian I am encouraging debate. Is this not important? Is truth not important?
What is wrong with asking the questios I am asking? What is wrong with understanding a particular view of history? I am not condemning anyone. Why the personal attack?*
In my opinion, you’re either being disingenuous or truly don’t see how some of your threads and posts set up the Strawman Fallacy.
Good, healthy, and charitable debate would seem to be the only option for Christians. While I certainly respect your faith and your fervor, I sometimes find it hard to respect your baiting and setting people up with your occasional ad hominem arguments and manipulation.
This is a Catholic site. It seems to me that, as a Catholic, you would want to be more concerned with hospitality towards seperated brethern than in alienating them.
We’ll obviously disagree, and you’ll claim innocence on this, I’m sure… You may have the truth of the Catholic Church on your side, but I’m not sure that excuses your impolite debating tactics. But I’m willing to concede that you may not realize how you come across.
I would be happy to respond to your questions if you truly wanted good debate. But I refuse to be set up and have good points ignored so you can feel you’ll win the debate in the best tradition of Jerry Springer. I suspect that’s why no one is taking you up on your “invitation.” No one likes to be invited to a barbeque when they’re the one who is going to be barbequed.
You may not see that… but I suspect that’s how some of us see it.
Pax,
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“Here Is Your Chance, Protestants!”
“Protestants, Just What Did the Early Church Look Like?”
“Calling On All Protestants On This Forum”
“Desperately Seeking Evidence for Sola Scriptura in Church History”
Look at one of your earlier quotes in this thread: *And I am not baiting fellow Christian I am encouraging debate. Is this not important? Is truth not important?
What is wrong with asking the questios I am asking? What is wrong with understanding a particular view of history? I am not condemning anyone. Why the personal attack?*
In my opinion, you’re either being disingenuous or truly don’t see how some of your threads and posts set up the Strawman Fallacy.
Good, healthy, and charitable debate would seem to be the only option for Christians. While I certainly respect your faith and your fervor, I sometimes find it hard to respect your baiting and setting people up with your occasional ad hominem arguments and manipulation.
This is a Catholic site. It seems to me that, as a Catholic, you would want to be more concerned with hospitality towards seperated brethern than in alienating them.
We’ll obviously disagree, and you’ll claim innocence on this, I’m sure… You may have the truth of the Catholic Church on your side, but I’m not sure that excuses your impolite debating tactics. But I’m willing to concede that you may not realize how you come across.
I would be happy to respond to your questions if you truly wanted good debate. But I refuse to be set up and have good points ignored so you can feel you’ll win the debate in the best tradition of Jerry Springer. I suspect that’s why no one is taking you up on your “invitation.” No one likes to be invited to a barbeque when they’re the one who is going to be barbequed.
You may not see that… but I suspect that’s how some of us see it.
Pax,
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2Rollin_Stoned
Guest
Then how do you think we feel on a regular basis when we get hit with anti-Catholic rhetoric? I figure that Dave’s threads are opportunities for nonCatholics to make their statements and for us to deal with 'em out in the open. Not that some of them listen… I don’t see it as bigotry… If Dave is aggressive…so are his opponents most of the time.
It seems to me that Protestants and others come in here wanting us to be all warm and fuzzy with them as they proceed to deride all we believe with abandon.
This forum is very tolerant but I think we are more tolerant than our detractors forums. If we gave as good as we get in here on their forums, we’d be banned before we could click the submit button on our 2nd post.
I don’t know what all the :crying: is about.
It seems to me that Protestants and others come in here wanting us to be all warm and fuzzy with them as they proceed to deride all we believe with abandon.
This forum is very tolerant but I think we are more tolerant than our detractors forums. If we gave as good as we get in here on their forums, we’d be banned before we could click the submit button on our 2nd post.
I don’t know what all the :crying: is about.
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oriel36
Guest
What is the Church,Catholic or otherwise - is it in the ceremonies, is it in the physical chapel or Cathedral,in the Bible,in the people,in the Eucharist,in voluntary acts, in the great traditions of its writers,composers,artists,scientists,is it is the great empathy to support and celebrate with each other,is it in the simple decency and dignity which binds us and hates prejudice and pretension in all its ugliness.
Jesus as a Church is nothing other than the sparkling realisation of St Francis,even if we obey every law coming from man there is and understand all scripture and practice faith with great patience and passion only when we suffer great indignity and humiliation do we taste the body and blood of Christ.
feastofsaints.com/perfectjoy.htm
Go ahead if you wish to contend with a fellow Christian using denominational politics but our late Pope was such a good man in diffusing the differences that seperate Christian in an increasingly secular existence (at least in Western Europe).
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wabrams
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They should be questioned b/c anyone writing from the inside is already biased.
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dennisknapp
Guest
O.S. Luke:
If I have used thread titles that seem like baiting it is because this is what gets people’s attention. This is a busy forum and in order to start a debate it is necessary to implore attention getters.
The titles of my thread are just that–attentions getters. I had tried in the past to post threads with just the topic and got little to no response. I think this is true of many people on this forum. If you want debate you have to get people’s attention.
In what way have I ever presented a Strawman? In what way have I ever attacked the person instead of the argument? Ad Hominem? Where? If you have such a hard time with my approach please show me proof. If not, then let’s deal with the issue and stay away from personal attacks.
Peace
To say that I am baiting Protestants just to burn them is false and has no bearing on the issue at hand.
If I have used thread titles that seem like baiting it is because this is what gets people’s attention. This is a busy forum and in order to start a debate it is necessary to implore attention getters.
The titles of my thread are just that–attentions getters. I had tried in the past to post threads with just the topic and got little to no response. I think this is true of many people on this forum. If you want debate you have to get people’s attention.
In what way have I ever presented a Strawman? In what way have I ever attacked the person instead of the argument? Ad Hominem? Where? If you have such a hard time with my approach please show me proof. If not, then let’s deal with the issue and stay away from personal attacks.
Peace
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dennisknapp
Guest
Are you not showing your own bias? For what reason would the Church Fathers have to be biased? Your position did not exist until over a thousand years after they were dead.
Who exactly are they being biased against?
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dennisknapp
Guest
I have great respect for my Protestant brothers and sisters. My closest friend, the bestman at my wedding was a Protestant. What you fail to realize is that we can disagree and still be friends.
My friend Tony and I don’t agree on the Protestant/Catholic issue, but what we do agree on is a love for the TRUTH. He and I know that we want to be in the truth because Christ is the truth. How we get to this truth is through study and prayer…and debate. Yes, debate. How can we not understand each other unless we dialog with each other?
Protestants and Catholics are different while believing many of the same things, but the differences are profound and need to be dealt with. How we do this is through dialog. Not personal attacks or emotionalism, dialog.
How else would you have us do it? What are these boards for?
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dennisknapp
Guest
2Rollin'Stoned:
BTW the name is Dennis.
Peace
Yes, please show me where I have personally attacked anyone?
BTW the name is Dennis.
Peace
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