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Michael_C
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I’ve read the entire thread and didn’t find anything vicious about it. I’m interested in the responses from people that are not Catholic.
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Michael_C
Guest
Hi Wabrams, Can you give examples of writings from someone on the “Outside” that support A Protestant assessment of Church history from as far back as those on the “Inside”? I think it’s a valid question.
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Ignatius
Guest
I think you are taking the word of some people who were not there. Try reading Ignatius, Clement, Justin Martyr, Iraneaus, Maximos, or any of the myriad other first, second or third century writers who were there then and I think you will get quite a different picture.
God Bless
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Ignatius
Guest
So you have no evidence, huh? Didn’t think soIgnatius:
We know the point of view of the early church fathers, but how biased was their writing?
BTW, We know they had the Truth because They were chosen and taught directly by the Apostles. What’s your next question, How do we know the Apostles weren’t biased?
May the love of God the Father, the peace of Jesus Christ His Son, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you. May the Holy Spirit descend upon you, open your eyse and lead you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. Ephphatha!
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Shibboleth
Guest
You are getting crickets because it is simply too broad of a question. For a person to even marginally state their point on this issue it would take a book worth of words.
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dennisknapp
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I am not asking for a book worth of words, just a assessment of Church history from a Protestant point of view.
How do you view the first 500 years of Christianity? The Catholic Church has her view what is yours?
Peace
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Shibboleth
Guest
Well the first few years the Apostles were going from city to city teaching the people and bringing them into the faith. Paul was primarily teaching to the Gentiles, James to the Jewish, and Peter was in between. Churches were established throughout Christendom with a Patriarchal Hierarchy.
Then you had in addition to that persecution and people celebrating in catacombs and the like which caused vast separations. Because of this, distances between groups and what not many heresies existed in the early years of the Church. Due to the the Patriarch outlay certain people were allowed to take Communion in one See but not in another….
Self appointed Bishops took over in cities that the Apostolic Bishops fled from during various persecutions. This caused a large amount of problems.
Ecumenical Councils occurred to help deal with some of this… blah blah blah.
I am not sure what you are looking for.
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oriel36
Guest
No, the differences in Christianity do not follow Catholic or Protestant lines but rather the older lines of Martha/Mary , Peter/John or the two type of Christians Jesus prayed for in John 17. It is more productive to consider that the Church recognised this complimentary division within its Apostolic ranks and St Augustine writes eloquently on the division between Peter and John but this is now lost to history and we are worse off for it.
Perhaps a Christian can help me out on finding that text from Augustine where he and the Church acknowledges that there are two types of Christians with the body of the Apostolic Church that are complimentary yet different to each other.One typified by the apostle Peter and the other by the apostle John corresponding to synoptic and Johanine theologies.
Faith/works is an empty argument that goes nowhere and does nothing for some men are destined to struggle while others are required to do something special.
For both Catholics and Protestants there is a great mystery in the Johaninne Word and happy are those who come to understand it,for it is an ongoing miracle.If you become less certain of the differences between Catholics and Protestants it will happen that Jesus answers why Peter was just as loved as the other disciple but could not know what was to follow.His Majesty ordains all things according to order and nothing can stop what Jesus began and it is truly a miracle.The sadness of Peter growing old while carrying Christ is the mirror of our Catholic Church but our late Pope was such a wonderful man in speaking more of Jesus that of Catholicism as a institution .I owe him this -
11 Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.” Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved, the one who had also reclined upon his chest during the supper and had said, “Master, who is the one who will betray you?” When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus said to him, “What if I want him to remain until I come? 12 What concern is it of yours? You follow me.”
It will bring tears someday but they will be of joy just as he promised. Miracles cannot take place where faith hinders so please find room to heal this terrible split for there is nothing in the empty faith/works arguments.
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dennisknapp
Guest
You are a Protestant and see history in a certain way, correct? A Catholic sees it in a different way.
What proof do you have to not see it in a Catholic way?
Peace
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dennisknapp
Guest
I don’t get what you are saying? Are you saying that Protestantism and Catholicsim are the same thing? We have major differences, ie. Scripture alone, faith alone, issus regarding authority, issues regarding Mary, etc.
Are you saying that these do not really exist?
What is your point?
Peace
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Shibboleth
Guest
The Roman See overextended its power from time to time which caused certain people to become upset. Neither side was willing to give in so Schism erupted – false claims and misconceptions about the other group’s beliefs formed further dividing the groups.
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dennisknapp
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Where is your proof for this?
Peace
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Shibboleth
Guest
Tell you what, you outline Catholic history and where it disagrees with other Christian views of history and provide back-up for those instances.
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wabrams
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ANd what people are you referring to?
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wabrams
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Seeing as how there is an Eastern Orthodox Church, there’s a start.
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Mickey
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I agree with you Dennis. What bias could the early Church Fathers possibly have? There were disagreements that were settled by Church Councils–but bias? Perhaps wabrams feels that the early heretics were forerunners of the modern day protestants?
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dennisknapp
Guest
This thread was meant as a chance to discuss the Protestant view of Church history. The Catholic view is presupposed. Let’s just say for argument sake that the Catholic view is the official view.
What is your problem with this and could you provide a better understanding?
Peace
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oriel36
Guest
The last chapter in John puzzled St Augustine no end and clearly you can see that Christ is the rock of the Apostolic Church rather than the later diluted version which institutes Peter as the rock.It changes nothing for Apostolic Christianity and certainly for Augustine it would’nt make a difference with Papal authority but what has changed is that the Johaninne passage is clear now where it would not have been to Augustine.
newadvent.org/fathers/1701124.htm
The rich heritage of Christianity is buried under pointless arguments which do not place Christ at the center and faith/works are one of those meaningless distractions.
The more of Christ the less the division there is as individuals or in a denominational setting.
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dennisknapp
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Where are you getting this?
This is not official Church teaching which does place Peter as the Rock.
So, are you basing all your understanding on a single passage of Scripture in John?
This is very confusing???
Anyone else confused?
You are Catholic, right?
Peace
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oriel36
Guest
I am of couse an Apostolic Christian,love my Church and Catholic community and very proud of the late Pope.In the context of two complimentary Christian co-existing in the early Church as representative of Peter and John most people already know that the Johaninne Christianity was absorbed into Apostolic Christianity while retaining its identity.There is nothing amiss in St Augustine’s commentary of John in respect to what the Rock is but don’t go bananas over the apparent dilution in status of Peter or set it against the general Matthean commision of “go forth…”.
" For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, “On this rock will I build my Church,” because Peter had said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed. I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself also built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus."
newadvent.org/fathers/1701124.htm
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