Heresies

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Dokimas said:
I think you are taking this verse out of context.

Matthew 18:
15 ¶ "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.​

The context isn’t disagree with a church, but not dealing properly with a sin against a brother or sister in the church.
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It ultimately does come to the Church though. If a brother sins against you:

First, go to him alone

if that doesn’t work:

Second, bring two or three witnesses

if that doesn’t work:

third, bring it before the Church

if THAT also fails to rectify the situation, “let him be as a heathen or tax collector.” Let him be as an outsider. I believe, the context is talking about the Church being the final authority if other measures fail. Where the Church is, the authority of Jesus is (verse 20).

David
 
ralphinal said:
Heresy is knowing the Truth but preferring the lie. From an NT standpoint, you see Paul talking about different gospels, John talking about denying Jesus, etc.
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BTW, Ralph, for what is worth, I don’t have a signature.
 
dnu said:
It ultimately does come to the Church though. If a brother sins against you:

First, go to him alone

if that doesn’t work:

Second, bring two or three witnesses

if that doesn’t work:

third, bring it before the Church

if THAT also fails to rectify the situation, “let him be as a heathen or tax collector.” Let him be as an outsider. I believe, the context is talking about the Church being the final authority if other measures fail. Where the Church is, the authority of Jesus is (verse 20).

David
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Local church not a world wide religion.
 
Dokimas said:
Could you give us chapter and verse, please? Let’s make a list. Okay?
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Not if you want to see the word “heresy.” And not if you want a list of stuff that is heretical.

If you want to see where the writers warned against those who taught incorrect things, I can

Which is it?
 
Dokimas said:
Local church not a world wide religion.
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Of course not, the historical setting is crucial. When that event took place, there was only about a few dozen of them at most, right? Jesus, the 12, and maybe some stragglers following them around.

By your logic, that would mean that any Church larger than about 20 or 30 people doesn’t fit the “original” model of a Christian Church, and is therefore invalid.

Also, the “Church” at that moment in history didn’t even have a permanent building, they wondered from town to town and from synagogue to synagogue. So, by your logic, any Church that has more than 20 or 30 members, and any Church that has a permanent building may not count as an “original” Church,and therefore may not be what Jesus is speaking of in these versus. This of course, would make whatever Church you currently attend invalid as well.

Perhaps Jesus never intended his group to grow at atll Perhaps, at the end of Mathew when Jesus said “all nations,” he really meant “just keep it between yourselves, because if it really encompasses the entire planet (i.e. all nations), it won’t be what I intended.” I don’t know, I wasn’t there.

David
 
Dokimas said:

Would anyone like to post verses that reveal what teachings God sees as heresies?​

Please make sure they are specific and NOT unkind in your presentation!!!
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Please tell us what verse you think that God is teaching as heresies,That question is about 3 years after that its the apostal teaching it is not God,God does not teach heresies
 
Luke 12
8 "I tell you the truth, everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, the Son of Man* will also acknowledge in the presence of God’s angels.9 But anyone who denies me here on earth will be denied before God’s angels.10 Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. {NLT]

Denial of Jesus and the Denial of the Holy Spirit, I prefer to keep this simple. Since not all the NT is exactly clear on many points we shouldn’t delve deeper and trust God to show His mercy for differences in secondary beliefs not vital to salvation.
 
Dokimas said:
Is that whatherecy is to you? It’s wrong teaching in the name of Jesus, to me.
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You should have known father Edward while he was younger. He has been quite an accomplished monk among the cistersian trappists, and a long time member on the board of directors of Roman Catholic Publishing in America.

He is in a nursing home now, remembering his early days as an exorcist is South Africa.
 
Bill_Pick said:
Jesus does not teach error or any thing that is WRONG
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Correct!!! Wow, we can agree on something.:clapping::dancing:​

It’s not Jesus I’m worried about. It’s you and I (and our churches) that don’t always understand Him correctly.​

BTW, are you going to add something to the topic?
 
geometer said:
You should have known father Edward while he was younger. He has been quite an accomplished monk among the cistersian trappists, and a long time member on the board of directors of Roman Catholic Publishing in America.

He is in a nursing home now, remembering his early days as an exorcist is South Africa.
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I have little doubt it would be a priviledge to know him. I’m sure you count yourself fortunated to have known him. God bless him and you.
 
Dokimas said:

Correct!!! Wow, we can agree on something.:clapping::dancing:​

It’s not Jesus I’m worried about. It’s you and I (and our churches) that don’t always understand Him correctly.​

BTW, are you going to add something to the topic?
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You do not have to worry about me Our MY Church Mt.16-18-19
 
tweetymom said:
In the Bible He does not
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Before anyone jumps down tweetymom’s throat, she is not saying that Jesus teaches wrongly outside the Bible either. Correct, tweetymom?​

Jesus isn’t the problem, we are.
 
If we look at this logically, it is impossible for Jesus to have taught anything incorrect. Therefore, everything that he teaches in the Gospels is correct and anything opposed to it is heretical.

Now, we must look at what is taught in the rest of the Bible. If the other works have incorrect teachings in them, we should discard the lot. We have no way to verify what is and is not correct in them. However, if we take the two statements by Jesus that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to all TRUTH (i.e. no heresies) and that hell would not prevail over the Church (i.e. no heresies would be taught), then we can say that the NT contains no heresies. But, since the faith is founded on the teachings and very existence of Jesus Christ, anything in the Bible must be understood based on what Jesus himself taught (in other words, if we think that John or Paul are saying something different, we need to hold to what Jesus said and understand the others based on that).

So, we have a Bible that contains no heretical teachings.

Is there any reason to think that the protections from Jesus applied only to the First Century Church? If yes, then it is possible that heresies have entered the faith. If not, then we should be able to compare that which the Church teaches to that which is opposed and say there is heresy. I would like to say that if heresies entered the Church, we have the same issue that we have with the Bible: there is no way to be sure what should be kept and what should not be kept.

Now, if you say that we should only keep that which is in the Bible, we run right into the verse in John where he says that not everything Jesus said or did is in the Bible. Further, Paul says that we should hold fast to that which we were taught by word of mouth or by letter. We get into a possible situation where there are some things that are not recorded that may be important to the faith.
 
ralphinal said:
If we look at this logically, it is impossible for Jesus to have taught anything incorrect. Therefore, everything that he teaches in the Gospels is correct and anything opposed to it is heretical.

Now, we must look at what is taught in the rest of the Bible. If the other works have incorrect teachings in them, we should discard the lot. We have no way to verify what is and is not correct in them. However, if we take the two statements by Jesus that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to all TRUTH (i.e. no heresies) and that hell would not prevail over the Church (i.e. no heresies would be taught), then we can say that the NT contains no heresies. But, since the faith is founded on the teachings and very existence of Jesus Christ, anything in the Bible must be understood based on what Jesus himself taught (in other words, if we think that John or Paul are saying something different, we need to hold to what Jesus said and understand the others based on that).

So, we have a Bible that contains no heretical teachings.

Is there any reason to think that the protections from Jesus applied only to the First Century Church? If yes, then it is possible that heresies have entered the faith. If not, then we should be able to compare that which the Church teaches to that which is opposed and say there is heresy. I would like to say that if heresies entered the Church, we have the same issue that we have with the Bible: there is no way to be sure what should be kept and what should not be kept.

Now, if you say that we should only keep that which is in the Bible, we run right into the verse in John where he says that not everything Jesus said or did is in the Bible. Further, Paul says that we should hold fast to that which we were taught by word of mouth or by letter. We get into a possible situation where there are some things that are not recorded that may be important to the faith.
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very well said. let’s take for example: Jesus said: “This is my Body, take and eateth it…
This is my Blood take and drinketh…” for 2000 years the CC says this is the True Body and Blood of Christ which we partake.

protestants denies this. and i ask the question can someone 2000 years later pick up the Bible and know for sure what Jesus meant by these Words?

:highprayer::byzsoc:
 
Dokimas said:
Local church not a world wide religion.
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First, what do you mean by “local church.” Is there more than one church founded by Jesys Christ? And where in the verse does it say “local church?”

I think it means exactly what it says… take it to the church. (Not “a” church or “a local church”) The verse implies there is only one church to resolve such conflicts… the church founded by Jesus Christ.

I agree the passage does not say take the brother to a religion. But such rhetoric confuses the point. The authority to resolve the issue lies in *the *church referenced in the bible verse, not simply “a” local community of believers who profess the name of Jesus. If such were the case, we would have had a christianity that looked a lot like protestantism dating from the beginning. Instead, we had a single church authority, and those who accepted that authority (i.e. the teaching of the Apostles and their successors) throughout the different communities established from the beginning.

Peace,
Robert
 
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