Heresy and the great apostasy

[Ron_Conte]

[2 Thessalonians 2]
{2:3} Let no one deceive you in any way. For this cannot be, unless the apostasy will have arrived first, and the man of sin will have been revealed, the son of perdition,

[1 Timothy]
{1:5} Now the goal of instruction is charity from a pure heart, and a good conscience, and an unfeigned faith.
{1:6} Certain persons, wandering away from these things, have been turned aside to empty babbling,
{1:7} desiring to be teachers of the law, but understanding neither the things that they themselves are saying, nor what they are affirming about these things.

[1 Timothy]
{4:1} Now the Spirit has clearly said that, in the end times, some persons will depart from the faith, paying attention to spirits of error and the doctrines of devils,
{4:2} speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their consciences seared,

[Titus]
{3:10} Avoid a man who is a heretic, after the first and second correction,
{3:11} knowing that one who is like this has been subverted, and that he offends; for he has been condemned by his own judgment.

[2 Corinthians]
{11:13} For false apostles, such as these deceitful workers, are presenting themselves as if they were Apostles of Christ.

In my opinion, the foundation for the great apostasy has already been laid. Very many Catholics are in a state of material heresy (I am not here judging if they have committed formal heresy or not, but it is likely based on their own words than many have). They reject teachings of the Faith that have been taught infallibly, either by a Pope or a Council or the universal Magisterium.

Examples:

1. The teaching that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women as priests.

What percentage of Catholics believe that the Church can and should ordain women priests? I think that it is a sizeable percentage, though perhaps less than half (less than a third??).

1. The real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Some surveys have shown that a majority of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence.

1. The inerrancy of Scripture.

The opinion that has been often condemned by the Magisterium is perhaps the most common opinion among Catholics, that inerrrancy is limited to matters of faith and morals. Some even place no limits on the type or number of errors, even holding that the OT has errors on morality.

1. Contraception

Most married Catholics use contraception, and believe that contraception is not intrinsically evil, in contradiction to the teaching of the universal Magisterium.

1. Abortion

very many Catholics do not believe that direct abortion is always gravely immoral; they think that direct abortion is moral in some cases.

1. intrinsic evil

I think that most Catholics do not believe, or even understand, the Church’s teaching that intrinsically evil acts are always immoral, regardless of intention or circumstances.

There are many other definitive teachings of the Faith that a sizeable number of Catholics reject. But with only these six, the vast majority of Catholics hold opinions that are material heresy.

The great apostasy is not very far away.

 

[Zundrah]

Are you perhaps talking about mormons? They say that the apostasy has already happened…

 

[reggieM]

Are you perhaps talking about mormons? They say that the apostasy has already happened…

Mormons are apostate Protestants – so apostasy twice-removed from the Truth.

 

[Zundrah]

Mormons are apostate Protestants – so apostasy twice-removed from the Truth.

I don’t understand?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Mormons are apostate Protestants – so apostasy twice-removed from the Truth.

Protestants would disagree with you. Mormons are looked upon as a cult, having never had any real connection to Protestantism. It has more in common with Gnosticism.

 

[abajab]

In my opinion, the foundation for the great apostasy has already been laid. Very many Catholics are in a state of material heresy (I am not here judging if they have committed formal heresy or not, but it is likely based on their own words than many have). They reject teachings of the Faith that have been taught infallibly, either by a Pope or a Council or the universal Magisterium.

Could we not say that the great apostasy rests mostly on the shoulders of the Cardinals, Bishops and Priests. Priests have been told by their bishops not to speak about sin from the pulpit because this reduces the amount of people that attend Mass and thereby reduces the amount of money taken in.

I have read surveys that state that only 10% of those who claim to be Catholic actually attend Mass. However, it has been my expirience that amongst this 10% very few even know what the Church teaches on many matters. On the other hand I have spoken with other Catholics that do know what the Church teaches on certain matters but simply claim that the Church is wrong. ( Your example of women priest, contriception abortiong and so on.) The latter, of course, are simply cafeteria Catholics choosing what they like and throwing out the rest. Therefore, can we claim that the cafeteria Catholic is even a Catholic to begin with and should be left out of the equation. In other words, are they simply Protestants without a church, even though they attend mass? Please understand that this is not a slam towards Protestants. I know some Protestants that are better Catholics, in practice, then many Catholics that I know. Their’s is just the invincible ignorance that comes about by the many misconceptions and erronious teachings about what Catholicism is.

Again I come back to the Cardinals Bishops and Priests. Saint Paul writes, “… you have many fathers amongst you, but it was I who fathered you in the faith of Christ…”. The function of the priest is to father us in our faith in Christ, therefore we use the title “Father” when addressing the priest. But do they actually perform this function? Yes some do, but I must emphasise the word “some”. How is it that I’ve learned most of my Catholicism from the Catacism and the writings of great doctors and Saints of the Church? My point being that if I could not read, I would not know 90% of what I know about Catholicism.

Jeff

 

[Ron_Conte]

The clergy and religious come from the laity. No one is born a priest or religious. Every Bishop, priest, etc. is first a lay person for many years. So if there is a problem among the clergy and religious, that problem must also be in the laity.

 

[abajab]

The clergy and religious come from the laity. No one is born a priest or religious. Every Bishop, priest, etc. is first a lay person for many years. So if there is a problem among the clergy and religious, that problem must also be in the laity.

I agree, especially because we now live in the information age the lay person has no real excuse and only the darker heart will not seek the information of true Catholicism out. However, the existing clergy still must share the bigger part of the burden simply because it is their job to guide the flock that has been assigned to them. My point being that if a history teacher, out of laziness, does not teach his or her students history, then very few children will take it upon themselves to do so and we must keep in mind that this lazy teacher was first a student. We could also argue that this lazy teacher should not have gone into the occupation of being a teacher in the first place.

Jeff

 

[Zundrah]

Protestants would disagree with you. Mormons are looked upon as a cult, having never had any real connection to Protestantism. It has more in common with Gnosticism.

Amen!

 

[fhansen]

[2 Thessalonians 2]
{2:3} Let no one deceive you in any way. For this cannot be, unless the apostasy will have arrived first, and the man of sin will have been revealed, the son of perdition,

[1 Timothy]
{1:5} Now the goal of instruction is charity from a pure heart, and a good conscience, and an unfeigned faith.
{1:6} Certain persons, wandering away from these things, have been turned aside to empty babbling,
{1:7} desiring to be teachers of the law, but understanding neither the things that they themselves are saying, nor what they are affirming about these things.

[1 Timothy]
{4:1} Now the Spirit has clearly said that, in the end times, some persons will depart from the faith, paying attention to spirits of error and the doctrines of devils,
{4:2} speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their consciences seared,

[Titus]
{3:10} Avoid a man who is a heretic, after the first and second correction,
{3:11} knowing that one who is like this has been subverted, and that he offends; for he has been condemned by his own judgment.

[2 Corinthians]
{11:13} For false apostles, such as these deceitful workers, are presenting themselves as if they were Apostles of Christ.

In my opinion, the foundation for the great apostasy has already been laid. Very many Catholics are in a state of material heresy (I am not here judging if they have committed formal heresy or not, but it is likely based on their own words than many have). They reject teachings of the Faith that have been taught infallibly, either by a Pope or a Council or the universal Magisterium.

Examples:

1. The teaching that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women as priests.

What percentage of Catholics believe that the Church can and should ordain women priests? I think that it is a sizeable percentage, though perhaps less than half (less than a third??).

1. The real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Some surveys have shown that a majority of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence.

1. The inerrancy of Scripture.

The opinion that has been often condemned by the Magisterium is perhaps the most common opinion among Catholics, that inerrrancy is limited to matters of faith and morals. Some even place no limits on the type or number of errors, even holding that the OT has errors on morality.

1. Contraception

Most married Catholics use contraception, and believe that contraception is not intrinsically evil, in contradiction to the teaching of the universal Magisterium.

1. Abortion

very many Catholics do not believe that direct abortion is always gravely immoral; they think that direct abortion is moral in some cases.

1. intrinsic evil

I think that most Catholics do not believe, or even understand, the Church’s teaching that intrinsically evil acts are always immoral, regardless of intention or circumstances.

There are many other definitive teachings of the Faith that a sizeable number of Catholics reject. But with only these six, the vast majority of Catholics hold opinions that are material heresy.

The great apostasy is not very far away.

Could the Reformation and all that followed to this day be considered the great apostasy?

 

[Zundrah]

Could the Reformation and all that followed to this day be considered the great apostasy?

No way!

The great apostasy is very far away, let me tell you!

 

[abajab]

No way!

The great apostasy is very far away, let me tell you!

I guess my question would be to everyone within this post is… What exactly does the great apostasy look like? It is obvious that every generation has thought the they were living in the end times. Yet Jesus tells us that no one will know the day nor the hour. So yes Zundrah, you can say that it’s far away, but in your sight what does it look like? What would be its elements from your point of view?

Jeff

 

[Zundrah]

I guess my question would be to everyone within this post is… What exactly does the great apostasy look like? It is obvious that every generation has thought the they were living in the end times. Yet Jesus tells us that no one will know the day or the hour. So yes Zundrah, you can say that it’s far away, but in your sight what does it look like? What would be its elements from your point of view?

Jeff

Isn’t it when Christ will come on clouds, or before that? Just before that?

I think that Christianity will be vastly underminded and treated so badly that maybe our beliefs and practices will become “politically incorrect” and even stopped, but Muslims will be aloud to keep on going ect…

I think we may meet a terrible end.

 

[reggieM]

I don’t understand?

Joseph Smith was a Protestant raised in a Protestant millieu (about 30 miles from where I now live). His Book of Mormon borrows heavily from the King James Bible and many of his doctrines are reactions to the Protestant teaching of the day. He built his religious views on an Evangelical Protestant basis – and in many ways rightly sought to establish some authoritative teaching (rather than the subjective sola scriptura common in the burned-over district where he lived). His background was influenced by the travelling preachers of his day. Interestingly, he had almost zero exposure to Catholicism, except to absorb the exact anti-Catholic slurs that were commonly preached among the anti-Catholic Protestants of that era.

So, Joseph Smith was a Protestant apostate, in general terms. He broke from the Protestant teaching of his environment. He was heavily influenced by the Methodist preachers of his area and while he didn’t join their church formally, he attended prayer meetings and scripture classes with them.

He later claimed that the Methodists were false teachers, so he started his own church.

So, we could infer from Joseph Smith’s life that he first thought that the Methodists were apostate.

 

[Zundrah]

Joseph Smith was a Protestant raised in a Protestant millieu (about 30 miles from where I now live). His Book of Mormon borrows heavily from the King James Bible and many of his doctrines are reactions to the Protestant teaching of the day. He built his religious views on an Evangelical Protestant basis – and in many ways rightly sought to establish some authoritative teaching (rather than the subjective sola scriptura common in the burned-over district where he lived). His background was influenced by the travelling preachers of his day. Interestingly, he had almost zero exposure to Catholicism, except to absorb the exact anti-Catholic slurs that were commonly preached among the anti-Catholic Protestants of that era.

So, Joseph Smith was a Protestant apostate, in general terms. He broke from the Protestant teaching of his environment. He was heavily influenced by the Methodist preachers of his area and while he didn’t join their church formally, he attended prayer meetings and scripture classes with them.

He later claimed that the Methodists were false teachers, so he started his own church.

So, we could infer from Joseph Smith’s life that he first thought that the Methodists were apostate.

This is true and is exactly what I have already learned, but look below;

The teaching of the Mormons has a completely different matrix. We do not find ourselves, therefore, before the case of the validity of Baptism administered by heretics, affirmed already from the first Christian centuries, nor of Baptism conferred in non-Catholic ecclesial communities, as noted in Canon 869 §2.

This source is from this link below (very interesting, I encourage you to look at its contents);

ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm

 

[Randy_Carson]

In my opinion, the foundation for the great apostasy has already been laid. Very many Catholics are in a state of material heresy (I am not here judging if they have committed formal heresy or not, but it is likely based on their own words than many have). They reject teachings of the Faith that have been taught infallibly, either by a Pope or a Council or the universal Magisterium.

Ron-

Is Pope Benedict XVI a validly elected successor of Peter?

 

[Zundrah]

Originally Posted by **Ron Conte **
In my opinion, the foundation for the great apostasy has already been laid. Very many Catholics are in a state of material heresy (I am not here judging if they have committed formal heresy or not, but it is likely based on their own words than many have). They reject teachings of the Faith that have been taught infallibly, either by a Pope or a Council or the universal Magisterium.

The church doesn’t sin, people do.

Ron-

Is Pope Benedict XVI a validly elected successor of Peter?

Don’t worry about it, after all; “The gates of hell shall not prevail.”

 

[reggieM]

This is true and is exactly what I have already learned, but look below;

This source is from this link below (very interesting, I encourage you to look at its contents);

ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm

Yes, that is helpful. I’m very familiar with Mormonism also. Keep in mind, I didn’t say that Mormons were Protestants. I said that they were “Protestant apostates”. In other words, they broke from the Protestant church which was dominant at the time. None of the first Mormons, for example, were ex-Catholics or Jews. They were all ex-Protestants – they all had the same backgrounds and biases.

But the Mormon Church is not a Protestant sect. It broke away from the Protestant church. In the same way, the Lutheran Church is not in union with the Catholic faith. Lutherans are “Catholic apostates” – they broke from Catholicism and started their own religion.

So, what does the Mormon church mean by “the great apostasy”? Their own founder attended Methodist services and he absorbed, unthinkingly, much of the Protestant novelties. But he never recognized that the Protestant faith is an apostasy from Catholicism.

That is the biggest evidence of the shortcomings of Mr. Smith’s view. He knew nothing about Catholicism, but at the same time, claimed that God wanted to “restore the priesthood” – correctly understanding that the Protestant sects did not have a priesthood, but not recognizing the apostolic authority of the Catholic Church.

He simply had no exposure to Catholicism as a youth and by the time he was made a “prophet” his only knowledge of Catholicism came from anti-Catholic bigots (Evangelicals and Masons).

 

[Zundrah]

Yes, that is helpful. I’m very familiar with Mormonism also. Keep in mind, I didn’t say that Mormons were Protestants. I said that they were “Protestant apostates”. In other words, they broke from the Protestant church which was dominant at the time. None of the first Mormons, for example, were ex-Catholics or Jews. They were all ex-Protestants – they all had the same backgrounds and biases.

But the Mormon Church is not a Protestant sect. It broke away from the Protestant church. In the same way, the Lutheran Church is not in union with the Catholic faith. Lutherans are “Catholic apostates” – they broke from Catholicism and started their own religion.

So, what does the Mormon church mean by “the great apostasy”? Their own founder attended Methodist services and he absorbed, unthinkingly, much of the Protestant novelties. But he never recognized that the Protestant faith is an apostasy from Catholicism.

That is the biggest evidence of the shortcomings of Mr. Smith’s view. He knew nothing about Catholicism, but at the same time, claimed that God wanted to “restore the priesthood” – correctly understanding that the Protestant sects did not have a priesthood, but not recognizing the apostolic authority of the Catholic Church.

He simply had no exposure to Catholicism as a youth and by the time he was made a “prophet” his only knowledge of Catholicism came from anti-Catholic bigots (Evangelicals and Masons).

My my, you ceratainly have been doing your home work haven’t you?

That’s correct, the Mormons recognised that the protestants had no Apostalic “Authority” but the catholics did. So they came up with the “great apostasy” to answer for the catholic covenant being lost so that the mormons could “gain” it.

 

[reggieM]

My my, you ceratainly have been doing your home work haven’t you?

Well, I live very near the Mormon promised-land of Palmyra, NY.

That’s correct, the Mormons recognised that the protestants had no Apostalic “Authority” but the catholics did. So they came up with the “great apostasy” to answer for the catholic covenant being lost so that the mormons could “gain” it.

True. But they were never able to say when the great apostasy happened – although they claim it occurred on the death of the last apostle. That doesn’t make sense though because the apostles started all of those Churches and none of them show any change in their beliefs after the apostles died.