Heresy Defined : Catholic vs Jewish viewpoint

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Catholic tradition/dogmas have frequently led to excomunication on basis of holding non-orthodox beliefs. Heresy being defined as holding doctrinal dissent with Church teachings.

Judaism on the otherhand did not similarily penalize a follower holding non-orthodox beliefs. Deviation from the faith was assessed on grounds of practice or discipline … rather than on basis of ones doctrine.

As an example: Early Christians were still allowed to worship at the Jewish Temple.

On the other hand, Martin Luther’s disputes over Church’s ‘fallen’ doctrine led to his being labeled a heretic … with penalty of death issued. Glad to see Church is no longer in favor of Death Penalty for mortal crimes.

Did the Church go overboard in its earlier days … or is the Jewish viewpoint too lenient ?
 
On the other hand, Martin Luther’s disputes over Church’s ‘fallen’ doctrine led to his being labeled a heretic … with penalty of death issued. Glad to see Church is no longer in favor of Death Penalty for mortal crimes.
The Church has, and always will support capital punishment.
 
moving on to the actual question…

I think the main differance is what it takes to be a “good Jew” and a “good Chritian”

Christianity is an orthdox religion, a relegion based primarily on ones belief/inner fellings and convictions. Even our charitable acts must be true acts of charity, acts of love.

Judism is an orthopractic religion, based on actions and observing customs and practices. What you did was important, not what you thought (though many profits hinted at what was to come, even King David himself, but the law did not make any demands of belief other than "I am the Lord your God…with all your steinght and mind).

At least this is what I’ve been told about Judism and what I’ve read.

Sinece Christianity focuses on the inner life it makes sience that She really cares about what is in a man’s heart.

I don’t think the Church went overboard, usually people were not put to death in the old days untill they repented, so the idea was to get them into heaven. Executions, in the medival mind, were a way to insure a criminal’s salvation. If you are put to death 10 minutes after your last confession chances are you are saved, right? Primative by our sincibilities, but effective none the less. I would caution you, do not be quick to judge the medievals, its hard to put ourselves in their shoes. More theology has come out sience the medieval period, our morals and views are different.

Stricktly speaking, there is nothing wrong with executions for legitimate crimes, but our modern sinciblities have grown beyond that, and thats fine; as long as we aknolage that legitimate authority has that right, even if they choose not to exercise that right.

By the way, the Jewish authorities DID go after Jesus, St. Stephen and many others, tried to stone Paul for his beliefs, so I think you have a false dichotomy going on. Also, according to the law you can stone people for adultary and any number of crimes, if you recall you scriptures. Did Jesus stop this from happening? YES! why, if authority has that right under the law did Jesus stop the crowd from stoning the woman? Because Jesus was able to pardon her sin and reform her heart! Were that not possible I don’t believe he would have done much about it, but thats speculation.

So I really don’t think there is that big of a difference between Christian and Jewish viewpoints on heresy, both called for death in such cases only both have since chosen not to exercise that right in modern times. Just my thoughts, I would make them more coherent if I were not at work, but alas…
 
and before I am accused of being anti-semetic

NO I am not blaming the Jews for killing Christ,

I am using Christ as an example that Judisim historically, just like Christianity, has used capital punishment for the defense of the faith.
 
the idea was to get them into heaven. Executions, in the medival mind, were a way to insure a criminal’s salvation. If you are put to death 10 minutes after your last confession chances are you are saved, right? Primative by our sincibilities, but effective none the less. I would caution you, do not be quick to judge the medievals, its hard to put ourselves in their shoes. More theology has come out sience the medieval period, our morals and views are different.

I had never heard this explanation as reason to burn a satanic witch or heretical Luther !!

Isn’t it ironic that in early days of Church, when the Romans had the power and the Christians were being martyred, … heretical beliefs were tolerated/suffered. Verbal arguments with the disagreeable heretics were waged over many years, in the theater of verbal debates, etc. Examples: Polycarp with Marcion, Athanasius with Arius.

Only later, when the Church gained the power [middle ages] … did it start to treat the heathen / heretics like they had once treated the Church. This, is what set off Luther so … among other things.

Did not Christ teach us to “Do unto others as you would have them do to you” … and for us to ‘Turn the other cheek, give them your cloak too, etc’.

What happened in Middle Ages was — the Church forgot about the Beatitudes.
 
I had never heard this explanation as reason to burn a satanic witch or heretical Luther !!

Isn’t it ironic that in early days of Church, when the Romans had the power and the Christians were being martyred, … heretical beliefs were tolerated/suffered. Verbal arguments with the disagreeable heretics were waged over many years, in the theater of verbal debates, etc. Examples: Polycarp with Marcion, Athanasius with Arius.

Only later, when the Church gained the power [middle ages] … did it start to treat the heathen / heretics like they had once treated the Church. This, is what set off Luther so … among other things.

Did not Christ teach us to “Do unto others as you would have them do to you” … and for us to ‘Turn the other cheek, give them your cloak too, etc’.

What happened in Middle Ages was — the Church forgot about the Beatitudes.
It’s easy to see that in the 20th century, but try to put yourself in the shoes of a medival. Remeber, its not so much a thing about religion as it is culture. Catholics AND protesetants burned heretics, or what they considered herititcs, and witches. I think this had to do with the way the culture looked at how to act in order to achive their objectives. Christianity came out of a mature culture that had refind itself over many years. With the invasion of the barbarians, that is to say my ancestors, civilization colapsed. Germanic views on things were different. They saw a problem, and the best way in their mind to solve it was to put the problem to death, after obtaining a confession from the accused. I don’t think its fair to blame this development on the Church, were it her fault we would see a discrephency between how the church dealt with things and how the protestants dealth with things, and how the state delt with things.

Consider that in protestant England many Catholics were killed and even in the American colonies people were put to death for witchcraft as late as the 1692, so its not just the “big bad catholic church” that is killing folks here. Also, ALL states put people to death for many crimes. In fact, sometimes people would blaspheme themselves in order to get a trial in the church which was usually more fare than a trial in the civil courts, but I digress.

My point is that it wasn’t the Church that forgot the Beatitues, it was the culture that didn’t live them, or at least didn’t express them in the way we understand. As for polycarp and others, a few points here.
  1. These were not medivals, they were ancients. Different ways of thinking and viewing culture and morals
  2. The church did not have the power it had later, and the civil authorities were not Christian.
Now I’m not saying that I think they were completely right in putting heretics to death, I’m saying its not a good idea to judge them for it, we are not medievals! We are moderns, we think like moderns and we act like moderns. They were medivals and thought and acted like medivals, so its hard to judge weather they were right or wrong.

We do know that legitimate authority has the right to execute prisoners, after all, the law permits it. Christ never forbid the death penalty, though you could argue that he discouraged it by sparing the woman caught in adultery.

Now as for “turning the other cheek” that mostly has to do with actions between persons, not between a person and the state/church; an important distinction. Again, I’m not saying the medievals were right, I’m just saying that we really cannot say that they were wrong.

I DO take issue with your assertion that Luther left the Church over treatment of heretics! This is not the case in anything I have studied about Luther. He left because of abuses in the Church, not because of how the church dealt with heretics.
 
Back to the main point of your post, I don’t think there is a difference between the Catholic and Jewish viewpoint of how to deal with heresy, nor the protestant view for the matter, how its dealt with has more to do with the culture than the religion.
 
I feel fairly certain St. Stephen felt the Jews were pretty intolerant toward his views.
 
I think we should also remember that, unlike many Christians today, the Church believed and still believes that Hell is a real place. The Church believed that it was better to wrench a confession from a person rather than have them burn in Hell. I don’t think this excuses some of the things the Church did, but she was certainly right to treat heresy as a terrible thing.

BTW, Martin Luther left the Church because of the selling of indulgences.

We should also remember, as has been pointed out here, that the Church was not alone by any means in Her treatment of heretics. Lutherans were known to burn witches at the stake. John Calvin refused to step in to stop the execution of a friend of his for heresy. Luther even went so far as to say that the German Monarchy was duty bound to help his church put down the uprising of ‘papists’ in Germany. Salem anyone?

The point is that I think the Church erred (yes I am not a Catholic) in her treatment of heresy, especially during the Inquisition, but I also think that if the Church today took the same serious view of sin and hell then there would be less heresy in the Church and more converted people as well.
 
I think Spinoza was excommunicated from his Jewish community because of heresy.
 
I think in both religions heresy is the wilful denial of some fundamental dogma or belief regarding the religion. Spinoza and medieval heretics were excommunicated for allegedly denying certain doctrines. They were executed as heresy was viewed as a crime against the state (the church did not itself execute heretics or witches, but handed those found guilty over to secular authorities) as well as against the church. Not every alleged or convicted heretic was executed. Some were jailed, and others had other penalties.

I think we need to be careful to avoid anachronistic judgement of the actions of people in the past, which were done in a vastly different culture and for different reasons than the ones we punish people with criminal sanctions today. I think though the Enlightenment thinkers were very right to regard the mutual killings of people for religious reasons as an obscene form of barbarism, and also to emphasize freedom of religious belief and conscience is a key right that must be protected by law.

I don’t think any religion has any right to execute or physically or mentally torture someone for a decision relating to their religious belief. I think if the right to religious freedom in terms of both conscience and freedom to practice a belief (or to leave a belief and not practice) were removed, Western society would take a big step backwards. We only need to look at places like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran or Afghanistan to see what happens when the state denies religious freedom. Converting from Islam to Catholicism in these countries would probably make you liable for the death penalty. Would we really want to imitate those countries with our own laws, and make converting from Christianity to another religion a capital crime? I doubt many would think so.
 
Wow, what you stated in the second and third paragraph is what I was trying to get across and came off sloppy. Teaches me to try and write a response while troubleshooting customers at work!
 
Catholics AND protesetants burned heretics, or what they considered herititcs, and witches. I think this had to do with the way the culture looked at how to act in order to achive their objectives. Christianity came out of a mature culture that had refind itself over many years. With the invasion of the barbarians, that is to say my ancestors, civilization colapsed. Germanic views on things were different. They saw a problem, and the best way in their mind to solve it was to put the problem to death, after obtaining a confession from the accused. I don’t think its fair to blame this development on the Church, were it her fault we would see a discrephency between how the church dealt with things and how the protestants dealth with things, and how the state delt with things.

Consider that in protestant England many Catholics were killed and even in the American colonies people were put to death for witchcraft as late as the 1692, so its not just the “big bad catholic church” that is killing folks here. .
See … thats the problem … when we allow ‘culture’ to dictate our religious morals.

The Catholics learned torture from the Romans, the Protestants from the Catholics, etc … etc. Look at modern day Ireland, look at Muslim fanatics … where this has persisted to current day.

The sins of fathers are reborn in later generations. Christ never taught us that our ‘culture’ is an excuse to not follow the Beatitudes.

The Beatitudes as taught by Christ … are to be our new covenant ‘improved version’ of original 10 commandments. If someone can practice the Beatitudes … they can also keep the original 10. But, it doesn’t always hold true going the other direction.
 
See … thats the problem … when we allow ‘culture’ to dictate our religious morals.

The Catholics learned torture from the Romans, the Protestants from the Catholics, etc … etc. Look at modern day Ireland, look at Muslim fanatics … where this has persisted to current day.

The sins of fathers are reborn in later generations. Christ never taught us that our ‘culture’ is an excuse to not follow the Beatitudes.

The Beatitudes as taught by Christ … are to be our new covenant ‘improved version’ of original 10 commandments. If someone can practice the Beatitudes … they can also keep the original 10. But, it doesn’t always hold true going the other direction.
Ah but the Catholics did not learn torture from the Romans, the German barbarians who became catholics and later protestants brought torture with them. See, its not that the Church adapted to them, its that they took centuries to adapt to the Church. Almost every culture worldwide has used capital punishment and yes, even torture, the Franks and the Vandals (and the Anglos and the Saxons and the Normands) were no exception. As you stated, the early Catholic Church did not use torture, because the early Church was hellenistic in culture and less likely to be as “hog wild” when it came to that. The Barbarians on the other hand…well, “hard times call for hard ways” (Frank Herbert’s Dune). It took a long time for Christianity to really take root in the medieval mind, only to have culture change again to early modern and the process starts all over again, of the culture adapting to Christianity.

I mean, we can all agree that the use of torture is bad, right? And that Capital Punishment should not be used for heresy, what can a dead man learn? My point is that

a. This is not exclusive to the Catholic Church

b. This is not something that the Church borrowed from culture, it is something that pre-existed in culture

c. It’s hard to judge the medievals for what they did. In their minds they were following the Beatitudes, as they understood them. Were they right? I don’t believe so, but that doesn’t make them evil or cruel, at least not in their hearts. I would recommend getting a copy of Chronicles of the Crusades, a great source written by scribes that accompanied the Crusaders. It really helps you understand the medieval mind.
 
I would recommend getting a copy of Chronicles of the Crusades, a great source written by scribes that accompanied the Crusaders. It really helps you understand the medieval mind.
Minds are formed from genes and life experience. Genes of man haven’t changed one iota since time of Christ.

Its all about life experience. When people inflict hate crimes on another race/creed … those experiences are carried on to future offspring.

Only Christ can break the cycle of violence, via H.S. instilled into fallen man.

Sadly, many atheists use the wrongs of Church history [wrongly done in name of God] to justify their beliefs that religion is fantasy.
 
Don’t know about genes, but life experiances definatly, and how you are brought up, thats what I’m saying.

The medieval mind was different as the individual was brought up with a different understanding of how the world worked.
 
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