Heresy in Evangelii Gaudium?

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Pope Francis, Evangelii Gaudium, n.247: “We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked”

???
Can someone explain? Doesn’t the Church teach that the coming of Christ abrogated the Old Covenant FOR ALL??!?!??

This opposes Pope Eugenius III’s and the Ecumenical Council of Florence’s dogmatic definition that the covenant was nullified with the coming of Christ.
 
You might want to edit your thread title; it looks like you’re accusing the Pope of heresy.

And then you should read the CCC; especially #839 which, speaking about the Jews, states “the gift and the call of God are irrevocable.”
 
Whatever the Pope says, we must interpret it in such a way as that it will be orthodox. Sometimes, the same thing, if read one way, can seem unorthodox, but if read another, can seem orthodox.

There is a big, and misguided, movement in Christianity to ‘recover’ a Hebrew way of reading Scripture, a Hebrew theology, etc.

In terms of promoting peace, it seem the Church should concentrate more on relationships with Islam. They venerate Christ and the Virgin Mary, and believe in the immortality of the soul and the world to come. Over-empasizing Christian-Jewish relations damages severely our dialogue with Islam.

If Jews are our ‘cousins’ in faith, Muslims are our ‘brothers’.
 
I get this, and thanks for the answer - but this doesn’t really answer my question.

I need clarification on the quote I posted.
 
Qoeleth said:
In terms of promoting peace, it seem the Church should concentrate more on relationships with Islam. They venerate Christ and the Virgin Mary, and believe in the immortality of the soul and the world to come. Over-empasizing Christian-Jewish relations damages severely our dialogue with Islam.

If Jews are our ‘cousins’ in faith, Muslims are our ‘brothers’.
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Lord, help us!
 
Qoeleth said:
Whatever the Pope says, we must interpret it in such a way as that it will be orthodox. Sometimes, the same thing, if read one way, can seem unorthodox, but if read another, can seem orthodox.

There is a big, and misguided, movement in Christianity to ‘recover’ a Hebrew way of reading Scripture, a Hebrew theology, etc.

In terms of promoting peace, it seem the Church should concentrate more on relationships with Islam. They venerate Christ and the Virgin Mary, and believe in the immortality of the soul and the world to come. Over-empasizing Christian-Jewish relations damages severely our dialogue with Islam.

If Jews are our ‘cousins’ in faith, Muslims are our ‘brothers’.
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You would suggest that we should have a deeper, more meaningful relationship with Islam than with Judaism?

The Muslims never received revelation from God. They never received a covenant. They have been the origin of much terrorism in the world, as well.

For what reason should we consider them brothers? No, I’m not saying we should hate them, but for what reason should we condone their actions?
 
If there is heresy, how do we know that it wasn’t Eugenius III and the Council of Florence who were heretics?

The bias always seems to be in favor of something just because it happened a long time ago.

-Tim-
 
agnes_therese said:
You might want to edit your thread title; it looks like you’re accusing the Pope of heresy.

And then you should read the CCC; especially #839 which, speaking about the Jews, states “the gift and the call of God are irrevocable.”
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I’m not accusing. If I were accusing him, I wouldn’t have put the question mark at the end.

Just to note: I fully recognize the Pope’s authority, and his legitimacy. I’m just having problems with this quote and, until now, nobody has been able to answer my question.

I know the section of the Catechism you are referring to: it also points out that Christ is Jewish. Does this mean that Christ would subscribe to Jewish beliefs if he came into the world today? No.

The Catholic Church represents the New Covenant that was made with the same people. We are the Jews of the old covenant who have remained faithful to God’s Will as it instituted the new covenant. Christ didn’t come in the world for some, he came for all. And it is the duty of all to recognize Jesus as the Christ. Do you really think God is pleased with today’s Jews who know Jesus yet reject him?

This notion that God has two covenants, one with the Jews and one with us, is a heretical belief. Now, whether the Pope is ascribing to this belief remains another matter. Since I’m WORRIED (note: not sure, just worried) that he did, I came here to seek clarification.

I’d be grateful to anyone who will take the time to answer my question in detail.
 
Qoeleth said:
If Jews are our ‘cousins’ in faith, Muslims are our ‘brothers’.
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It is actually the opposite. You do a grave disservice to Jews by saying this, especially in light of the fact that we recognize the Tanakh as divine revelation but not the Qur’an.
 
TimothyH said:
If there is heresy, how do we know that it wasn’t Eugenius III and the Council of Florence who were heretics?

The bias always seems to be in favor of something just because it happened a long time ago.

-Tim-
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Good point. However, the teachings I outlined are DOGMATIC and hence binding on the faithful and infallible. Benedict XV also subscribed to such teachings in one of his encyclicals and, as far as I’m aware, have always been central to Church teaching on Jews.
 
JRTJ said:
Pope Francis, Evangelii Gaudium, n.247: “We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked”
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Their covenant hasn’t been revoked; it’s been fulfilled in Jesus. See Matt. 5:17-20.
This opposes Pope Eugenius III’s and the Ecumenical Council of Florence’s dogmatic definition that the covenant was nullified with the coming of Christ.
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What specifically does the Council of Florence say?

I think you might be reading too much into what the Pope is saying.
 
CrossofChrist said:
Their covenant hasn’t been revoked; it’s been fulfilled in Jesus. See Matt. 5:17-20.

What specifically does the Council of Florence say?

I think you might be reading too much into what the Pope is saying.
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Your first point, that their covenant has been fulfilled, is exactly what my point was trying to emphasize (although I did use the word ‘nullified’ which I guess was not the right choice) 🙂

With regard to what the Council says, here it is (copied and pasted)

“[This council] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosiac law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.”
(Council of Florence, Decree Cantate Domino [1442]; Denz. 712; underlining added.)
 
I hope that this helps.

God made six major covenants in the Bible, with:
  1. Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:26-2:3)
  2. Noah and his family (Genesis 9:8-17)
  3. Abraham and his descendants (Genesis 12:1-3; 17:1-14; 22:16-18)
  4. Moses and the Israelites (Exodus 19:5-6; 3:4-10; 6:7)
  5. David and the Kingdom of Israel (2 Samuel 7:8-19)
  6. Jesus and the Church (Matthew 26:28; 16:17-19)
Above taken from Lesson One at salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/covenant_the_master_key_that_unlocks_the_bible

“Covenant comes from the Latin word “convenire” which means to come together. A covenant is basically an agreement between people, or between God and His people, that binds one to the other.” …

“Notice how the family form progressed with each of God’s six covenants - Man and wife, family, tribe, nation, kingdom, universal worldwide kingdom. What God is doing here is not only building up man’s relationship to Him using signs and other humans, he is revealing more and more of Himself to us with each and every covenant, until at last He has revealed Himself fully in Jesus Christ. Sadly, man broke each covenant and had to endure the curses associated with each one. But God has been true to each one of His covenants with us, and that is really good news for us all.” Source: catholicbible101.com/covenantsinthebible.htm

The Jews may still be waiting for the 6th covenant but it seems to me that there is no evidence that God has rescinded or removed any of the previous 5.
 
This is all clear, however how do you go on to explain Jesus’ claim that “no one comes to the father except by me” in John 14?

If God has revealed himslef fully by Jesus (which obviously I agree with), how can you accept the idea that people can know Jesus and reject him and yet still achieve Salvation?

Putting Church pronouncements aside, where in the Gospel does it say that people can find Salvation outside Jesus and His Church? There are, however, a few instances (As the one cited above) in which Jesus himself told his disciples that people only get to the Father through him.

Now, how do you reconcile this with Francis’ phrase in Evangelii Gaudium?

Do any people in this Forum actually believe that Jews who consciously reject Christ go to Heaven?
 
The Jews still hold a special place in God’s heart. The Jews will always be God’s first chosen people. I personally believe that this is why, even to this day, so many Jews are so extraordinarily talented in so many fields whether it be in science, comedy, acting, music, or you name it. When God makes a promise, he keeps it. So, the promise he made to the Jews did not go away. It was fulfilled in Christ, even though the majority of modern Jews don’t recognize it.

Romans 3:1-4

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written,

“That thou mayest be justified in thy words,
and prevail when thou art judged.”

Romans 11:25-32

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
 
JRTJ said:
Your first point, that their covenant has been fulfilled, is exactly my point,

With regard to what the Council says, here it is (copied and pasted)

“[This council] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosiac law, **which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, ** although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.”
(Council of Florence, Decree Cantate Domino [1442]; Denz. 712; underlining added.)
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Read closer. This decree is referring to the Old covenant sacrifices and ordinances that signified Christ, not the covenant promise itself, which is what the pope is talking about. Those signs have been abrogated, yes. They were mere shadows and cannot effect any forgiveness of sin.

But the Covenant that God made to Abraham and the Jewish people has never been revoked, it can’t be. That would make God contradict himself, for He swore by himself.

For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, saying, “Surely I will bless and multiply you.” And thus Abraham, having patiently endured, obtained the promise. Men indeed swear by a greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. So when Hod desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he interposed with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible that God should prove false we who who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us. (Heb 6:13-18)

The covenant has been fulfilled and expanded and perfected with the advent of Christ, but it has never ceased, and notice, Florence nowhere said it has, it only talks about the end of the Mosaic rituals.

What Pope Francis said is very biblical, and doesn’t contradict Florence. Francis wasn’t talking about the temple sacrifices, which is what Florence is talking about.

The Holy Father is only following St. Paul’s lead:

I ask then, has God rejected his people? By no means!.. As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; But as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are IRREVOCABLE.(Rom 11:1,28-29)
 
JRTJ said:
I’m not accusing. If I were accusing him, I wouldn’t have put the question mark at the end.
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Then you made a poor choice of thread titles. “Heresy” is not a word to be thrown around lightly, just because we don’t understand something.
 
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