Heresy Questions

[JonNC]

Jon,

 

[JonNC]

The reason you do not have a valid Eucharist (from the Catholic perspective) is you don’t have Orders. You deny the sacrament.

The link also speaks to this.

The Catholic understanding of the Eucharist is that it is a sacrifice. At Mass we are present at Calvary. A priest is a person who offers sacrifice.

The same minister told me his synod is divided over Orders, the need for Orders in the Catholic sense of it, or to continue rejecting the Catholic position and keep their tradition. They do not know what to believe. Some say A. Others say B. Appeal to the Bible and vote. He is not happy that Catohlics might question the validity of his orders (ordination) when his own religion can’t decide A or B. How are Catholics supposed to know what Lutherans believe if Lutherans don’t know? If they all suddenly decide that Orders are neccesary in ministry what will they do about it? Where will they get some? Will they find some fringe illicit bishop somewhere to make them legit?

Then comes Lutheran Jon’s personal belief on confession and that what are or are not sacraments is not important. Are you trying to tell us that it is general Lutheran belief and practice to confess their sins to a person empowered to forgive them? Where does that empowerment come from if not Orders, sacramental Holy Orders?

One gos to the confessions, not to Jon. The confessions hold to the belief of confession to a pastor/confessor. This is done either in corporate confession at the beginning of worship, or in private confession. At the conclusion, this or similar is spoken by the pastor,
"As a called and ordained servant of Christ, and by His authority, I therefore forgive you all of your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

What they are divided over is whether or not Lutherans should seek to be in apostolic succession, not whether or not they must be ordained. Again, the confessions:

*The Fourteenth Article, in which we say that in the Church the administration of the Sacraments and Word ought to be allowed no one unless he be rightly called, they receive, but with the proviso that we employ canonical ordination. Concerning this subject we have frequently testified in this assembly that it is our greatest wish to maintain church-polity and the grades in the Church [old church-regulations and the government of bishops], even though they have been made by human authority [provided the bishops allow our doctrine and receive our *priests]. For we know that church discipline was instituted by the Fathers, in the manner laid down in the ancient canons, with a good and useful intention.

Notice he used the word priests. It isn’t what I think, it is what the confessions say.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=grandfather;9371271]
This is another question, but logic says A might be right, B might be right, neither is right. If A or B is right, Luther and his Reformation is wrong.

Deal. As soon as there’s agreement on who is right, I’ll make a move.

I blame Luther’s doctrine sola scriptura for smashing Christendom to bits.

Smashed to bits?

Well intentioned ignorant people today start Churches. It happens all the time. They believe they have the authority to do this as many others have done also and the authority that legitimizes them is the Bible. They do not see what they do as rebellion, or disobendience to God, or problematic in any way. They meet on Sundays, sing, preach, pray and shout amen brother and read and thump their Bibles.

I think it is problematic when we become comfortable with division.

Jon. I blame myself for the crucifixion of Jesus. I am a wretch. Luther was rightly scandalized at the decadence and corruption he found in all over Italy and he was unaware of the worst of it. Denominationalism is punishment for sin, not a few small sins, outrageous wickedness. Alexander VI fathered seven bastards while he was pope. The Borgias were a disgrace. This is not a question of who are the bad guys and who are the good guys.

The question is what caused denominationalism. It is a false doctrine. The only way to fix it is to reveal the cause. The Bible does not give me authority to start a new Church and it does not give Luther that authority either.

So, we have blame on both sides. How do we fix it? By the way, the issue of starting a Church can be asked regarding the Schism as well. My point is simply we agree that only God can cure our division.

How can I find out, where can I go to ascertain what Lutherans believe about anything? Don’t tell me the Confessions. That is no different that saying the Bible. I have coffee usually weekly with a Lutheran minister good friend. He laments over what is going on in the Lutheran Church. He wants unity of all Christians, but says if there is a way to reunify with Catholics that would be fine with him, but then we would have to “kick ELCA out”. Does not the ELCA have the same confessions as the rest?

Do the Old Catholics follow the same Sacred Tradition as Catholics in communion with Rome, or with Eastern Orthodoxy. Division is really a pox on both our houses. Yes, go to the confessions, just like you go to Sacred Tradition. No where does it say ordain women, or practicing gays (or anyone else in a relationship but not married). I lament what the ELCA has done, as well.

I repeat. Get rid of the sola if it is not sola.

It is sola.

Beyond that all doctrines etc. are accountable to the majesterium. Holding all doctrines accountable to scripture does exactly get you the guy on the plane. The Councils WERE the majesterium in their day. How do you accept it then if you don’t accept it now?

Which councils are accepted by both the East and Rome. The first 7? And we do too.
If we all decide to go there as a starting point, I think a significant level of unity can be had as a foundation.

You always make me laugh at myself Jon. God bless you.

Glad I could be of service. :tiphat:
His blessings also with you.

Jon

 

[grandfather]

It is scripture alone as the* final norm*, that which norms all teachings and teachers. It is not scripture alone as in nothing else matters or can be considered. My response, grandfather, was to your statement that what the other poster said was a “redefinition”. The Book of concord shows that is the original definition.

Now that we are clear that sola scriptura means that scripture is the final norm it does not change two things. This is not what Catholicism believes. The historical practical outcome of the doctrine is denominationaliosm. Luther may have intended that the Reformation he started end with a separate group that embraced his doctrines, but that is not what happened.

sure, there are those who took it and ran the wrong way with it. we see that today in those communities that have, indeed, redefined it as scripture only, and nothing else matters or counts, those who reject the creeds and early councils.

You really should consider being Orthodox. You echo Orthodoxy in many respects, but still insist on your constructing personal beliefs as a good Protestant. The insistance that the faith is entirely contained and expressed in the seven councils is very Orthodox. Do you think the fathers of those councils would have said that scripture alone is the final norm of faith, or would they have said that Christ entrusted doctrine, its definition to them?

He isn’t willing to look at what the early Church said, is he? Yesterday we used the Athanasian Creed, as is the typical practice of Lutherans on Trinity Sunday. It speaks clearly to the nature of God in three persons, and the person of Christ.

Neither are you. The early Church said there are seven sacraments. While you may say confession is necessary and you personally think there are three that is you. Maybe we need another sola. Sola me.

No, it is a misinterpretation of sola scriptura.

Lutherans get to interpret their own doctrine. Whatever sola scriptura means it is a Lurtheran construct and they can say what they mean by it. Hopefully they agree among themselves on their doctrines. We know they do not.

Catholics also find themselves in internal controversy. The means of setlling it is a “living” majesterium. The teaching authority of the Church did not go away, Christ’s promises to lead His Church into all truth forever did not stop after the seventh ecumenical council ended.

Luther is either of the majesterium, speaks in teaching authority or he does not. If he does not and the majesterium that comdemned his teachings is the true teaching authority and as you say the bishop of Rome has jurisdiction in the west, then sola scriptura and sola me is out.

Examine your definition of sola scriptura. Think about it critically. If scripture is the final norm (I guess it can be argued what that means) then the councils that you accept are only valid if you personally think the decisions they came to are supported by scripture.

In reality, in historical reality, the fathers of the councils governed a Church that baptized, confirmed/chrismated, confected the Eucharist through an ordained priesthood, absolved penitents, married, ordained and annointed the sick and dying, all sacramentally. They claimed all of this was done in sacrament.

Either they were right or wrong. It is black or white. If they were right, and you say they were right on track with the councils over which they presided, then you and Luther are wrong.

It is an all or nothing proposition. Being doctrinally sound is like being pregnant. You can’t be a little pregnant. You are or you are not.

I hear you definition of your doctrine, what you say it really means, so there is no misunderstanding I repeat your definition. Scripture is the final norm to hold all teachings accountable. We say it is false and inevitablly has led to endless division.

Scripture can’t hold anything or anyone accountable, or norm anything. People who use scripture can do that, but scripture can not. Who are the people with the authority to hold things accountable to scripture? You must say it is Luther who concocted the doctrine in the first place. Other Protestants rebel agaionst his doctrine, but he is their forebear in rebellion.

That is the essence of the problem and why the division occurred. It is also why various groups who disagree with one another today call themselves Lutheran. Catholics also are full of disputes. Our pope, a person, has authority to settle the controversies. The Bible can settle nothing. It can only lead to division when wielded by individuals with no teaching authority.