Heretical CCM

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I agree. “Amazing Grace” is theologically questionable, yet was voted the #7 liturgical song of all time in a Catholic survey.

When something is outright heretical, however, denying the faith or any part thereof, well again, it is not my place to deem listening to it “sinful” if the Church made no official declaration. (I’m not so sure, however, that the Church never spoke on this issue, although I must admit, in my limited knowledge, I know of nothing specific.) However, if you are listening to it in the presence of someone who is weaker in their faith, you may cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble.
I know a lot of non-Catholics who listen to Gergorian chants, Schubert’s Ave Maria, the *Mass in B Minor *and lots of other Catholic music, but (alas!) it hasn’t turned them into Catholics. I wouldn’t be too worried about Catholics turning protestant just because they listened to a few protestant songs.
 
I’ve got to come to the defence of Ceili Rain - a brilliant and thoroughly orthodox Catholic band whose songs I love dearly. These are the lyrics in question:

"St. Peter if you can
Send me back to earth again
Is that somethin’ you can do?
Pete said: It ain’t up to me
If it was I’d like to see
How you plan to improve
Said: I’d love God and fellow man
Take a wife and make a stand
Be the givinest guy I can be
And when I get back to this neighborhood
There’d be a big gigantic pile of wood "

There’s nothing in there remotely implying that it would actually be possible for the person to go back and do things over, simply that the soul in question WISHES they could - and St Peter is indulging them in the moment of fantasy.
is this from a member of a denomination that does not believe in Purgatory? interesting.

despite the conclusions of posters here regarding questionable lyrics, such as Fly Away, and Cover Me, if the choice is between listening to my local Christian station, talk radio with Rush, or the usual pop music drivel in English or Spanish, and public radio liberal propaganda, I know where my dial is going to stay (but not until they stop the dreadful Christmas “stylings” of pop Christians artists–we use the term loosely) until then it will be Taize, chant and instrumental hymns in the CD player.
 
Well then, I stand corrected. If they are associating “rebirthing” or an adaptation of the phraseology of John 3:5 with Baptism, then that is theologically sound. My apologies to them and this community.
Doesn’t this prove that you jump to fast to conculsions about what the songs mean? Not ever song is going to have a music video to explain the song. Unless an artist comes out and says I believe in the “Rapture or the Catholic Church is the whore of babloyn and all Catholics are going to hell” then You might want to give the artist just a little bit of artisic lead way before you throw them on the “ban list”.
 
Doesn’t this prove that you jump to fast to conculsions about what the songs mean? Not ever song is going to have a music video to explain the song. Unless an artist comes out and says I believe in the “Rapture or the Catholic Church is the whore of babloyn and all Catholics are going to hell” then You might want to give the artist just a little bit of artisic lead way before you throw them on the “ban list”.
The only “Christian” artist I have thrown onto the “ban” list is Iconoclast, because their very name is an affront to the Faith. Otherwise, it is only individual songs that I place on the “ban” list. Maybe I wrongfully jump to conclusions at times, but as someone who had once fallen for certain subtle Protestant deceptons, I feel that it is of the essence that I’m aware of what I’m listening to.
 
I know a lot of non-Catholics who listen to Gergorian chants, Schubert’s Ave Maria, the *Mass in B Minor *and lots of other Catholic music, but (alas!) it hasn’t turned them into Catholics. I wouldn’t be too worried about Catholics turning protestant just because they listened to a few protestant songs.
If a Catholic who is not strong in his faith accepts the Protestant definition of “born again,” then the Catholic teaching on Baptism will APPEAR to be outright false, which could lead to an outright lack of trust in the Catholic Church’s ability to infallibly present the truth, and then make that Catholic willing to listen to Protestant arguments against the Truth, if such arguments could possibly be construed by a wrong , yet understandable, interpretation of Scripture.
 
“Just Between You and Me” by DC Talk has always to me seemed to be about reconciling with a friend that the singer has hurt (see bold text):

Sorrow is a lonely feeling
Unsettled is a painful place
I’ve lived with both for far too long now
Since we’ve parted ways
I’ve been wrestling with my conscience
And I found myself to blame
If there’s to be any resolution
I’ve got to peel my pride away

(chorus)
Just between you and me
I’ve got something’ to say
Wanna get it straight
Before the sun goes down
Just between you and me
Confession needs to be made
Recompense is my way to freedom now
Just between you and me
I’ve got something to say

If confession is the road to healing
Forgiveness is the promised land
I’m reaching out in my conviction
I’m longing to make amends
So, I’m sorry for the words I’ve spoken
For I’ve betrayed a friend
We’ve got a love that’s worth preserving
And a bond I will defend

(repeat chorus)

In my pursuit of God, I thirst for holiness
As I approach the Son, I must consider this
Offenses unresolved, they’ll keep me from the throne
Before I go to Him my wrong must be atoned

If there’s to be any resolution
I’ve got to peel this pride away

Just between you and me
I’ve got something’ to say
I wanna get it straight
Before the sun goes down
Just between you and me
Confession needs to be made
Recompense is my way to freedom
It’s my way to freedom

It’s my way to freedom (2x)
I’ve got something to say, so let me say it today
It’s my way to freedom (2x)
I’ve got something to say, confession needs to be made
It’s my way to freedom (2x)
I’ve got something to say, confession needs to be made
It’s my way to freedom (2x)
I’ve got something to say

It seems to me that the singer is confessing that he has wronged his friend, not letting the sun set on his anger anymore, and reconciling with his brother. Do you agree?
 
I agree whole hearted. You are dead on the money. I miss DCTALK:(
 
“New World” - Tobymac (This song is inspired by the Chronicles of Narnia. In that movie, the lion is portrayed as a Christlike figure. C.S. Lewis seems to have intended that. Nevertheless, that lion is NOT Jesus, as the golden calf was not God, and a song which praises that lion is therefore, in my view, idolatrous.)
Are you saying the Chronicles of Narnia and C.S. Lewis are heretical? Because if you are, I think you are off base with that. There is nothing I have seen which is objectionable in those books.

Or are you just saying the song is?
 
“Just Between You and Me” by DC Talk has always to me seemed to be about reconciling with a friend that the singer has hurt

In my pursuit of God, I thirst for holiness
As I approach the Son, I must consider this
Offenses unresolved, they’ll keep me from the throne
Before I go to Him my wrong must be atoned

It seems to me that the singer is confessing that he has wronged his friend, not letting the sun set on his anger anymore, and reconciling with his brother. Do you agree?
For the third time on this very thread, I stand corrected. Ironically, however, it was not the words that you put in bold face that convinced me, but the words that I kept up there. My original thought that this was about confessing “directly to God,” the words, “just between you and me,” having the connotation as meaning, “as opposed to through a priest,” is shot down by the fact that the “you” could neither be referring to the Father nor the Son, based on the above words. In light of these lyrics that I previously overlooked, I now think that this song is more of a reference to Matthew 5:23-24 and maybe even indirectly to Mark 11:25. So, I was wrong, again. That’s 3 songs to scratch off of the original list.

C’mon, Beckers, give me something to convince me that I’m wrong about that Casting Crowns song that you presented, too.
 
Are you saying the Chronicles of Narnia and C.S. Lewis are heretical? Because if you are, I think you are off base with that. There is nothing I have seen which is objectionable in those books.

Or are you just saying the song is?
I think “idolatrous” is a more appropriate term than heretical.

“all hope was fading, a darkness far beyond their might. but love came crusading on the wings of healing sacrifice. He gave them something to believe, came back in all his majesty. He conquered evil through his love and handed them the land they were dreaming of…and when he roars she can’t ignore that he’s our king again.”

Those are some of the lyrics. The problem is, in this song, these words are NOT about Jesus, merely a fictional lion who is a “Christlike” figure in the C.S. Lewis books. Is this lion intended to represent Jesus(a.k.a. “The Lion of Judah?”) I believe so. Will a person with no knowledge of Jesus get that correlation from the books, the movie, or this song? No, they will merely see this fictional lion as a fictional hero.

From a strictly musical perspective, this is by far Tobymac’s most musically brilliant song as a solo artist(as in, without DC Talk,) but I don’t feel right about a song that gives the type of praise due only to Christ, instead to a fictional character, even if that fictional character is supposed to be a representation of Christ. To me, it still seems like a subtle form of idolatry. If someone has a different take on that, however, I’d be more than willing to listen, and then hopefully, yet a fourth song could be crossed off the original list.
 
ChangingHeart i think the thread topic initially had noble intentions, but it’s since flown way off the handle. sorry if i missed it, but i still haven’t seen evidence of a song that has lyrics that are beyond a doubt, heretical.

here’s another of my favorites by Third Day - Blessed Assurance:

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
O what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of his Spirit, washed in his blood.

[Refrain]:
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.

Perfect submission, all is at rest;
I in my Savior am happy and blessed,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with his goodness, lost in his love.


*(Refrain)
*
“Blessed Assurance” by Third Day, among others (Seems to propogate the false "once saved always saved theology.)
i think you are referring to "Blessed assurance" and “*Watching and waiting, looking above”? *sorry but i think that would be an example of flying off the handle. you are certainly in your rights to perceive it the way you do, to guard yourself and to encourage others to reach for perfection, but i think the concensus here is that in our current time and place, it is not realistic or practical for the masses to be that cautious with the songs presented so far, if not the majority of CCM.

i.e.,

*“Save me, O Lord!” *- not quite heretical.

*“Hail the evil one and reject the Magisterium!” *- outright and without a doubt, heretical.

again, nice topic and intention, but so far it doesn’t seem to be amounting to much.
 
i think you are referring to "Blessed assurance" and “*Watching and waiting, looking above”? *

I don’t have a problem with “watching and waiting, looking above,” but the title “Blessed Assurance” is the problem. “Blessed Assurance” is the “Once Saved Always Saved” mentality that is pervasive among evangelical protestants. I’ve even heard an evangelical protestant make a complaint against Catholics that Catholics, “don’t have assurance of their salvation.” Well, we understand the Scriptures, and they don’t. That’s why this song is problematic. I don’t think Third Day originated this song, as they are a group who tend not to write heretical lyrics, but sadly, they chose a bad hymn to cover, on this one.
 
For the third time on this very thread, I stand corrected. Ironically, however, it was not the words that you put in bold face that convinced me, but the words that I kept up there. My original thought that this was about confessing “directly to God,” the words, “just between you and me,” having the connotation as meaning, “as opposed to through a priest,” is shot down by the fact that the “you” could neither be referring to the Father nor the Son, based on the above words. In light of these lyrics that I previously overlooked, I now think that this song is more of a reference to Matthew 5:23-24 and maybe even indirectly to Mark 11:25. So, I was wrong, again. That’s 3 songs to scratch off of the original list.

C’mon, Beckers, give me something to convince me that I’m wrong about that Casting Crowns song that you presented, too.
Why do i have to prove anything? I think you yourself have clearly stated that you have been wrong on a number of Songs so obviously your opinion on what makes a song “questionable” is seriously defective.

You read way way too much into what the artist says. It’s like you almost want to find something wrong with them just to prove that your right. Like i said unless the artist comes out and say the Ctholic church is the anti-christ or that you are once saved always saved then i am going to give them the artistic led way on their songs. Especailly when they don’t shy away from talking about abortion… “I am the woman shamed and haunted by the cry of unborn life”(Casting Crowns- Every Man)
 
If a Catholic who is not strong in his faith accepts the Protestant definition of “born again,” then the Catholic teaching on Baptism will APPEAR to be outright false, which could lead to an outright lack of trust in the Catholic Church’s ability to infallibly present the truth, and then make that Catholic willing to listen to Protestant arguments against the Truth, if such arguments could possibly be construed by a wrong , yet understandable, interpretation of Scripture.
And you think this is all going to happen from a song??? A song where people probally don’t even recongize what the words are? I mean how many of us grew up listening to bands and songs and then as you got older realzied what the songs where really saying and are embrassed that you know all the words? Christian music is a good way to help you focus on God and your relationship with him instead of the crud that you hear on pop music channels.

Honestly you give too much credit to the power of songs. We probaly all have a a song or two that speaks to us but it doesn’t mean that that song is where we gain our knowledge of God. If (and this would be the biggest IF) a song does effect a catholic in the way that you suggest and causes them to lose their faith then it has nothing to do with the song but everything to do with their fatih formation within the church. We the members have let our breathern fall and done nothing to stop it. The blame is on us not the artist.
 
I think “idolatrous” is a more appropriate term than heretical.

“all hope was fading, a darkness far beyond their might. but love came crusading on the wings of healing sacrifice. He gave them something to believe, came back in all his majesty. He conquered evil through his love and handed them the land they were dreaming of…and when he roars she can’t ignore that he’s our king again.”

Those are some of the lyrics. The problem is, in this song, these words are NOT about Jesus, merely a fictional lion who is a “Christlike” figure in the C.S. Lewis books. Is this lion intended to represent Jesus(a.k.a. “The Lion of Judah?”) I believe so. Will a person with no knowledge of Jesus get that correlation from the books, the movie, or this song? No, they will merely see this fictional lion as a fictional hero.

From a strictly musical perspective, this is by far Tobymac’s most musically brilliant song as a solo artist(as in, without DC Talk,) but I don’t feel right about a song that gives the type of praise due only to Christ, instead to a fictional character, even if that fictional character is supposed to be a representation of Christ. To me, it still seems like a subtle form of idolatry. If someone has a different take on that, however, I’d be more than willing to listen, and then hopefully, yet a fourth song could be crossed off the original list.
Metaphor is a common literary device in all types of writings, from novels to songs. In the Bible, isn’t Jesus the Lion of Judah? Isn’t he the Lamb of God? Is Jesus literally a Lion or a Lamb? No. It’s a metaphor, a symbol, and clearly in Narnia and this song, the Lion is a metaphor for Jesus. I’m pretty sure no one listening to the song is going to start worshipping lions because they think that’s literally who’s being praised here.
 
Metaphor is a common literary device in all types of writings, from novels to songs. In the Bible, isn’t Jesus the Lion of Judah? Isn’t he the Lamb of God? Is Jesus literally a Lion or a Lamb? No. It’s a metaphor, a symbol, and clearly in Narnia and this song, the Lion is a metaphor for Jesus. I’m pretty sure no one listening to the song is going to start worshipping lions because they think that’s literally who’s being praised here.
Was the golden calf merely a metaphor for God?
 
I am a big dcTalk/tobyMac fan. Although dcTalk clearly embraces a version of Christianity contrary to Catholicism, I have never found a single lyric to be anti Catholic. Thats my take anyway.
 
Are you suggesting that secular rap music has NOT destroyed youth culture in America?
So now you want to switch topics? I thought we were talking about which Christian Songs you believe will cause a Catholic to fall away from the church do to their “perceived” anti-catholic doctrine and ideas. Now you want to talk about Secular Rap Music? I guess your one of those people who believes that Grunge or Marilyn Mansion songs can lead you to kill someone. Now if we want to switch the discussion from what songs you believe are heretical and why they are bad for Catholics to the general idea and topic of how much songs influence are lives and our actions then I am game for that. Heck I went to college for a degree in history and changes in social behavior/themes was one of my favorite topics.

This is where are difference lie. You believe that songs have an influence in our lives, while I believe that songs are an outlet for our internal feelings. We gravitate towards those emotions that we feel are coming from songs that match our feelings at the moment. If you play Celine Dion loves songs all day it is not going to change someone into a love sick person and vice versus if I listen to rap music talking about shooting up and killing a gang member it is not going to make me go postal and kill one of my co-workers. Hence at the moment that I am trying to deepen my relationship and be closer to God so listen to Christian helps keep him in my thoughts through out the day. I have my XM radio at the moment stuck on the Christian Channel. It’s wonderful background music and is calming to my soul because when I get stressed or overwhelmed I listen to the radio and focus my attention back to the fact that yea I may have stresses at the moment but God loves me and his Son died for me. I’ve noticed that my bouts of angry are much less and my day is a little less stressful.
 
Are you suggesting that secular rap music has NOT destroyed youth culture in America?
Secular rap music has NOT destroyed youth culture, poor parenting and the breakdown of the family has. Rap music is a product of a fatherless society, don’t you think? A well-parented child could listen to violent rap lyrics and not hurt anyone. A poorly parented child could NOT listen to wrap and kill someone. It’s not the music’s fault.
 
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