Heretical CCM

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Was the golden calf merely a metaphor for God?
Obviously not. The Israelites were not even intending to worship God when the bowed to the Golden Calf. It is clear that in Narnia, the Lion symbolizes Jesus, and it’s clear from the Tobymac song, that he is using that metaphor as a literary device. Do you truly believe the intent of the song is to worship a fictional character? It’s a song, a poem, a form of literature which commonly uses symbolism and metaphor.
 
I have several problems with CCM/Christian Rock all though these are just my own thoughts and some people may disigree I dont want to offend anyone.

Modern CCM was borne out of the Jesus Movement in the 1960’s in order to promote the idea of acepeting Christ alone as Lord and Savior for protestant churches which was a for runner for the the modern praise and worship songs for various conflicting protestant churches and movments. Christian music can range from sacred music, hymal, gospel, low CCM, higer CCM, Christian Rock, Christian rap ect. CCM is used for radio stations that many Christans listen to from Catholic to protestant. Most of these radio staitions are protestant. However many protestant churches use these CCM songs in place of hymal music that Catholics do. These churches** could **be UMC, Lutheran, Envg, baptist even seventh day adventist ect. As Catholics have the Eucharist for worship many churches may use music for worship. CCM is marketed for the Christian church as a unified whole. As a Catholic it does bother me that CCM is often used in so many conflicting ways. Many radio stations use the music to “win souls to Christ as savior” which is not a Catholic idea. On the other hand a catholic may want to listen to the music as a suplement not a replacemnt for Catholic Doctrine.

Also do the artists profit from the sale of their music. Because I dont remember the verse but there is a bible passage that warns against the use of Gods kingdom for profit.

The protestant music movement has a good 40 years on the Catholic one so hopefully Catholic music will improve with time.
 
I have several problems with CCM/Christian Rock all though these are just my own thoughts and some people may disigree I dont want to offend anyone.

Modern CCM was borne out of the Jesus Movement in the 1960’s in order to promote the idea of acepeting Christ alone as Lord and Savior for protestant churches which was a for runner for the the modern praise and worship songs for various conflicting protestant churches and movments. Christian music can range from sacred music, hymal, gospel, low CCM, higer CCM, Christian Rock, Christian rap ect. CCM is used for radio stations that many Christans listen to from Catholic to protestant. Most of these radio staitions are protestant. However many protestant churches use these CCM songs in place of hymal music that Catholics do. These churches** could **be UMC, Lutheran, Envg, baptist even seventh day adventist ect. As Catholics have the Eucharist for worship many churches may use music for worship. CCM is marketed for the Christian church as a unified whole. As a Catholic it does bother me that CCM is often used in so many conflicting ways. Many radio stations use the music to “win souls to Christ as savior” which is not a Catholic idea. On the other hand a catholic may want to listen to the music as a suplement not a replacemnt for Catholic Doctrine.

Also do the artists profit from the sale of their music. Because I dont remember the verse but there is a bible passage that warns against the use of Gods kingdom for profit.

The protestant music movement has a good 40 years on the Catholic one so hopefully Catholic music will improve with time.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts - you certainly don’t offend me! 🙂

I do understand where you coming from, generally I don’t think CCM is Mass-appropriate because it tends to be a “generalized” Christian view and not a specifically Catholic one. I personally don’t think the origin of the music makes it a bad thing for a Catholic to listen to outside of Mass, however. And while we Catholics don’t usually use the term “winning souls for Christ”, we certainly believe in evangelizing and converting people to Christ.

As far as the artists getting paid, they usually do, but the Bible also speaks of the laborer deserving his wage. After all, Priests, Organists, Diocesan Workers, etc. all get paid as well.

Those are my thoughts, anyway! 🙂
 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts - you certainly don’t offend me! 🙂

I do understand where you coming from, generally I don’t think CCM is Mass-appropriate because it tends to be a “generalized” Christian view and not a specifically Catholic one. I personally don’t think the origin of the music makes it a bad thing for a Catholic to listen to outside of Mass, however. And while we Catholics don’t usually use the term “winning souls for Christ”, we certainly believe in evangelizing and converting people to Christ.

As far as the artists getting paid, they usually do, but the Bible also speaks of the laborer deserving his wage. After all, Priests, Organists, Diocesan Workers, etc. all get paid as well.

Those are my thoughts, anyway! 🙂
I agree.
 
Obviously not. The Israelites were not even intending to worship God when the bowed to the Golden Calf. It is clear that in Narnia, the Lion symbolizes Jesus, and it’s clear from the Tobymac song, that he is using that metaphor as a literary device. Do you truly believe the intent of the song is to worship a fictional character? It’s a song, a poem, a form of literature which commonly uses symbolism and metaphor.
I see your point. I guess we’ll have to scratch that one off the list, too.
 
This is where are difference lie. You believe that songs have an influence in our lives, while I believe that songs are an outlet for our internal feelings.
I understand why you may believe that is what I’m saying, not that I would deny that I feel that way, but there is a much deeper issue, here, that I don’t feel that you are considering.

I think we need to face the reality that the vast majority of modern-day “Catholics” were poorly catechized. The term, “born-again Christian” is a theologically incorrect Protestant term. Many Catholics understand what Protestants mean by it, but may not realize that the term is theologically incorrect. When songs then talk about the experience that a person feels of being what Protestants call, “born again,” yet the Catholic Church claims that it happened at Baptism, well, I can’t overemphasize the fact that it can be the final nail in the coffin leading someone right out of the Catholic Church. The Catholic teaching on Baptism can become even MORE difficult to accept than the Marian doctrines, since it will SEEM to contradict not only the Bible, but what that person felt and knows to be a factual real life experience with God. That is how dangerous using the John 3:5 words, “born again,” out of the context of Baptism can be. But, I think I already stated that at least TWICE on this very thread.
 
Rap music is a product of a fatherless society, don’t you think?
I would agree with that statement, but I also see it in a cyclical form, in the sense that “secular rap music” and “fatherless society” are both causes and effects of each other.

As the OP, though, I have to admit this is getting off topic. I merely brought this up to show how strong the influence of music can be.
 
Are you suggesting that secular rap music has NOT destroyed youth culture in America?
nope. there is good catholic rap (i.e. Fr. Stan Fortuna). rap is a form of music. the rap you have come to know as evil is the gangster/filthy/violent rap. that’s the type that has contributed to the terrible culture.
i.e. rock. there can be satanic rock, or Christian rock.
We gravitate towards those emotions that we feel are coming from songs that match our feelings at the moment.
i haven’t studied anything on the matter but i do know that is the exact reason why i listened to the bad rap music most of my life (and even thought i’d be listening to rap/hip hop into old age and death). i was disgusted with the world, angry, selfish, God-less etc., and the music helped to express what i felt. after my conversion i started to listen to rock music, and the first “Christian” band i liked was Switchfoot. they are more of a “crossover” to secular music now (although i just saw them for the first time at a Christian event).

so for me, it was the crossover Christian music that was a big factor in my moving from completely violent and evil music, to completely Christian and God centered music. i even have some gregorian chant and benediction hymns in my car. i never would have imagined it a few years ago. we have a long way to go, but CCM is a necessary and valuable start.
 
I have several problems with CCM/Christian Rock all though these are just my own thoughts and some people may disigree I dont want to offend anyone.

Modern CCM was borne out of the Jesus Movement in the 1960’s in order to promote the idea of acepeting Christ alone as Lord and Savior for protestant churches which was a for runner for the the modern praise and worship songs for various conflicting protestant churches and movments. Christian music can range from sacred music, hymal, gospel, low CCM, higer CCM, Christian Rock, Christian rap ect. CCM is used for radio stations that many Christans listen to from Catholic to protestant. Most of these radio staitions are protestant. However many protestant churches use these CCM songs in place of hymal music that Catholics do. These churches** could **be UMC, Lutheran, Envg, baptist even seventh day adventist ect. As Catholics have the Eucharist for worship many churches may use music for worship. CCM is marketed for the Christian church as a unified whole. As a Catholic it does bother me that CCM is often used in so many conflicting ways. Many radio stations use the music to “win souls to Christ as savior” which is not a Catholic idea. On the other hand a catholic may want to listen to the music as a suplement not a replacemnt for Catholic Doctrine.

Also do the artists profit from the sale of their music. Because I dont remember the verse but there is a bible passage that warns against the use of Gods kingdom for profit.

The protestant music movement has a good 40 years on the Catholic one so hopefully Catholic music will improve with time.
although true, let us remember how many Catholic traditions had pagan origins. God is always able to draw good from evil situations. in the same way, i think the origin of CCM is irrelevant to its purpose. it has many good fruits, and we as Catholics need to get off our bums and help the Catholic music scene grow. i defy anyone who wouldn’t believe that the world would be a better place if all the secular music of today was replaced with Christian music. fyi, there is so much out there in almost every genre that exists, that it could possibly be done.
 
nope. there is good catholic rap (i.e. Fr. Stan Fortuna). rap is a form of music. the rap you have come to know as evil is the gangster/filthy/violent rap. that’s the type that has contributed to the terrible culture.
Please re-read what I wrote and pay special attention to the word, “secular.”
 
It appears that I have been wrong and overly judgmental many times. It can often be easy to jump to conclusions without knowing all the facts. I intend to fully repent, as often things are neither how they appear nor sound. I am glad that I started this thread, however, and I thank all who replied, because it helped expose a hidden sin that I had inside of me.
 
It appears that I have been wrong and overly judgmental many times. It can often be easy to jump to conclusions without knowing all the facts. I intend to fully repent, as often things are neither how they appear nor sound. I am glad that I started this thread, however, and I thank all who replied, because it helped expose a hidden sin that I had inside of me.
your humility is humbling, as i don’t think i’ve ever seen anyone do such a thing on a message board… 👍 Catholics are great aren’t they!

i still think it’s a worthy topic, and i’m sure if there isn’t a song out there that is outright heretical, there will be, eventually…
 
your humility is humbling, as i don’t think i’ve ever seen anyone do such a thing on a message board… 👍 Catholics are great aren’t they!

i still think it’s a worthy topic, and i’m sure if there isn’t a song out there that is outright heretical, there will be, eventually…
I agree. It take a strong person to apologize. Please excuse me for my behavior also.

Changing Heart I think you brought up some good points. I know i didn’t agree with you on the idea of how much influence songs have on people but i think this is still a topic to discuss within different avenues.
I mean do we as catholics do enough to support artist to get out the catholic message. I mean when i have gone to a few of these concerts people preach their faith and almost have alter calls for…Do we get out and evalengalize enough to people or do we hide the fact that were catholic? Do we help break down the stero types of who Catholics are?
Also do we do enough to keep these songs out of our mass because i know for a fact that the a lot of churches uses these songs in their life teen programs. I like them for replacement of pop music in my car and stuff but they are not apporiate for use during mass.
 
your humility is humbling, as i don’t think i’ve ever seen anyone do such a thing on a message board… 👍 Catholics are great aren’t they!

i still think it’s a worthy topic, and i’m sure if there isn’t a song out there that is outright heretical, there will be, eventually…
Thank You
 
I believe Oregon Catholic Press (OCP) does not publish the Gather hymnals (they are published by GIA – Gregorian Institute of America) out of Chicago. OCP does have a virtual monopoly on all the missalettes you find in pews across America.
 
I agree. It take a strong person to apologize. Please excuse me for my behavior also.

Changing Heart I think you brought up some good points. I know i didn’t agree with you on the idea of how much influence songs have on people but i think this is still a topic to discuss within different avenues.
I mean do we as catholics do enough to support artist to get out the catholic message. I mean when i have gone to a few of these concerts people preach their faith and almost have alter calls for…Do we get out and evalengalize enough to people or do we hide the fact that were catholic? Do we help break down the stero types of who Catholics are?
Also do we do enough to keep these songs out of our mass because i know for a fact that the a lot of churches uses these songs in their life teen programs. I like them for replacement of pop music in my car and stuff but they are not apporiate for use during mass.
Thank you, too, Beckers. I enjoyed our discussion. You bring up some important questions. As for keeping the songs out of Mass in the life teen programs, I suppose it would depend on which songs it was, as not all CCM by Protestants are necessarily Mass inappropriate, in my opinion.

As to your other question about getting the Catholic message out with contemporary music, I don’t feel that we do as much to promote our contemporary Catholic artists, as Protestants do to promote theirs. Part of the problem is likely that there are fewer contemporary Catholic musicians, and that from an evangelizing perspective they may not all resemble mainstream secular music enough, to the point where Catholic youth would feel comfortable playing it as a witnessing tool for their nonbelieving friends.

We have Katholicus, and it seems like Ceili Rain is Catholic, too, based on the link provided earlier on this thread, but the evidence was NOT conclusive. News At Eleven is another Catholic group that could have some mainstream appeal. Gretchen Harris could, too. Obviously we have Marty Haugen and David Haas who wrote much of our liturgical music, two personal favorites of mine, but the mainstream appeal of either would be questionable, as would that of John Michael Talbot or Michael Card.

So, basically, we need more big name Contemporary Catholic musicians out there whose music STYLE would have mainstream secular appeal, too. I feel that if we have such music, we don’t promote it very well.

Protestants have groups like Jars of Clay, Mercy Me, P.O.D., Stryper, Carrie Underwood(or is she a secular artist who has invaded Christian radio?), Randy Travis, Relient K., Hawk Nelson, Clay Aiken, Stacie Orrico, and allegedly Switchfoot, Lifehouse, and Mutemath(although Mutemath wanted to decline the notion of being a “Christian” group) who all get mainstream airplay. The only Catholic I can think of off-hand who does is Dion Demucci, but not with his Catholic music, but his secular music from the 1950s and 1960s. Rich Mullins was about to become Catholic before he died, too.

I think that more Catholic promotion of groups with a “mass appeal” as opposed to a “Mass appeal,” might really help Catholic youth in their faith, as well as help them witness to others.
 
Protestants have groups like Jars of Clay,
That’s the greatest band of all time! 🙂 Of all the CCM bands, I think this is the most un-anti-catholic band of all of them. 🙂 I believe one of their members even appeared on Lino Rulli’s Catholic Guy show on Sirius radio. Much props.

Sorry, had to share my love of Jars of Clay. Intriguing thread though, definitely making me take a step back and evaluate.
 
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