Heretical Pope?

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Hi. I’ve read that Pope Honorius I, who reigned from 625 to 638, was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth General Council (or Third Council of Constantinople) for subscribing to monothelitism. What implication does this have on papal infallibility and papal supremacy? If a pope can be “a heretic, not in intention, but in fact” (as Catholic Encylopedia says), how are we sure that the reigning pope and those before him were not heretical if no ecumenical council was there to anathematize him?
St. Agatho died before the conclusion of the council. The new pope, Leo II, had naturally no difficulty in giving to the decrees of the council the formal confirmation which the council asked from him, according to custom. The words about Honorius in his letter of confirmation, by which the council gets its ecumenical rank, are necessarily more important than the decree of the council itself: “We anathematize the inventors of the new error, that is, Theodore, Sergius,… and also Honorius, who did not attempt to sanctify this Apostolic Church with the teaching of Apostolic tradition, but by profane treachery permitted its purity to be polluted.” This appears to express exactly the mind of the council, only that the council avoided suggesting that Honorius disgraced the Roman Church. The last words of the quotation are given above as in the Greek of the letter, because great importance has been attached to them by a large number of Catholic apologists. Pennacchi, followed by Grisar, taught that by these words Leo II explicitly abrogated the condemnation for heresy by the council, and substituted a condemnation for negligence. Nothing, however, could be less explicit. Hefele, with many others before and after him, held that Leo II by the same words explained the sense in which the sentence of Honorius was to be understood. Such a distinction between the pope’s view and the council’s view is not justified by close examination of the facts. At best such a system of defense was exceedingly precarious, for the milder reading of the Latin is just as likely to be original: “but by profane treachery attempted to pollute its purity”. In this form Honorius is certainly not exculpated, yet the pope declares that he did not actually succeed in polluting the immaculate Roman Church. However, in his letter to the Spanish King Erwig, he has: “And with them Honorius, who allowed the unspotted rule of Apostolic tradition, which he received from his predecessors, to be tarnished.” To the Spanish bishops he explains his meaning: “With Honorius, who did not, as became the Apostolic authority, extinguish the flame of heretical teaching in its first beginning, but fostered it by his negligence.” That is, he did not insist on the “two operations”, but agreed with Sergius that the whole matter should be hushed up. Pope Honorius was subsequently included in the lists of heretics anathematized by the Trullan Synod, and by the seventh and eighth ecumenical councils without special remark; also in the oath taken by every new pope from the eighth century to the eleventh in the following words: “Together with Honorius, who added fuel to their wicked assertions” (Liber diurnus, ii, 9). It is clear that no Catholic has the right to defend Pope Honorius. He was a heretic, not in intention, but in fact; and he is to be considered to have been condemned in the sense in which Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia, who died in Catholic communion, never having resisted the Church, have been condemned. But he was not condemned as a Monothelite, nor was Sergius. And it would be harsh to regard him as a “private heretic”, for he admittedly had excellent intentions.
From oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Pope_Honorius_I
 
Does not accepting Leo’s statement as an actual authority establish that popes after Honorius still had authority?
 
there are certain teachings of the Church that cannot be changed, even by a pope, in fact divine revelation is complete, it could be more deeply understood, but no one can add or subtract from it, even a pope
 
With all due respect, none of the above responses answer the question. I shall check back on this one: I asked the priest at the Catholic parish I go to a question similar to this and his response was that since Honorius did not officially teach his heresy as Pope, it does not affect the idea of infalliability at all.
 
With all due respect, none of the above responses answer the question. I shall check back on this one: I asked the priest at the Catholic parish I go to a question similar to this and his response was that since Honorius did not officially teach his heresy as Pope, it does not affect the idea of infalliability at all.
Your priest is correct. You must remember that the infallibllity of the Pope is only on what he teaches when it comes to Docturine and Morals of the Church in all other areas he can be just as wrong as anyone else. He may even hold to personal wrong error but will not teach them.
 
You need to understand infallibility a little better. It is a protective charism, preventing the Pope from declaring erroneous doctrines in faith and morals for the Church universal that are binding. In other words, when the Pope declares a doctrine on faith and morals for the entire Church, that is to be binding upon all the faithful, he is prevented, by God, from erring.

In his personal life and beliefs, there is absolutely no guarantee that he will be impeccable. He can sin and go to hell just like anyone else.
 
You need to understand infallibility a little better. It is a protective charism, preventing the Pope from declaring erroneous doctrines in faith and morals for the Church universal that are binding. In other words, when the Pope declares a doctrine on faith and morals for the entire Church, that is to be binding upon all the faithful, he is prevented, by God, from erring.

In his personal life and beliefs, there is absolutely no guarantee that he will be impeccable. He can sin and go to hell just like anyone else.
👍 Yes, infallibility is a guarantee by the HS that the Church won’t be led into error despite human weakness, blundering, etc. Honorius is dramatic proof of this teaching because even he did nothing to change Church teachings on faith and morals.
 
Pope Pius 1X was responsable for Papal Infallibility.

Hes an interesting read, the longest reining of the Popes , he is the one who declared The Immaculation Conception of Mother Mary dogma in 1854, amongst many other things. Before him the Popes did not want to be infallible, but they say he ruled with an Iron Hand.

I’ve read also that Popes should maybe have time limits like Presidents.🙂
 
Pope Pius 1X was responsable for Papal Infallibility.

Hes an interesting read, the longest reining of the Popes , he is the one who declared The Immaculation Conception of Mother Mary dogma in 1854, amongst many other things. Before him the Popes did not want to be infallible, but they say he ruled with an Iron Hand.

I’ve read also that Popes should maybe have time limits like Presidents.🙂
Actually, Pope Pius IX formalized the teaching. It existed since the time of Jesus, when He gave His authority to the office we call Pope and installed Peter as the first Pope. Infallible statements by Popes are never anything new. They are formalization, basically, of existing doctrine. We can only hand on what we have been given by Christ. 🙂
 
I agree that Jesus was infallible( the only human that walked the earth that was infallible), no problem there, but no human being or organization or goverment can be infallible.
 
I agree that Jesus was infallible( the only human that walked the earth that was infallible), no problem there, but no human being or organization or goverment can be infallible.
You misunderstand infallibility…the Pope’s words are not final because they are infallible…instead they are infallible because they are final. e.g. there is no higher authority on earth. Whether you agree with the pope or not, is immaterial - the fact is there is no higher authority on earth and as Catholics we do trust that such statements are indeed guided by the holy spirit and the wisdom tradition of the Church.
 
words are not final because they are infallible…instead they are infallible because they are final.

What is the difference, nothing, we have to assume Peter and all following Popes following him never made an errror, or the Church, well I don’t think we can say that can we??

I don’t believe something because I’m told to, thank goodness, although sometimes I have to admit I’m pretty gullible.🙂
 
I agree that Jesus was infallible( the only human that walked the earth that was infallible), no problem there, but no human being or organization or goverment can be infallible.
Do you believe that the Bible is infallible? If so, then you have to realize that it was written by men, inspired by God. And, if God can inspire men to infallibly write the Bible, He can inspire men (Popes) to infallibly declare doctrine.

The Pope’s infallibility is not through his own power, but by God’s. It is a gift to the Church, giving us a sure way to know Christ. Without that, nobody knows anything. Everything’s up for grabs…like Protestantism, which has no final arbiter of truth. Anyone’s opinion is as valid as anyone else’s. We have an authoritative, and authentic interpreter of Christ’s truth, which He handed down to the Apostles, and through them to their successors, the bishops.
 
Do you believe that the Bible is infallible? If so, then you have to realize that it was written by men, inspired by God. And, if God can inspire men to infallibly write the Bible, He can inspire men (Popes) to infallibly declare doctrine.

The Pope’s infallibility is not through his own power, but by God’s. It is a gift to the Church, giving us a sure way to know Christ. Without that, nobody knows anything. Everything’s up for grabs…like Protestantism, which has no final arbiter of truth. Anyone’s opinion is as valid as anyone else’s. We have an authoritative, and authentic interpreter of Christ’s truth, which He handed down to the Apostles, and through them to their successors, the bishops.
I believe everyone has put their own spin on the Bible even the Catholic Church.

Anyone’s opinion is as valid as anyone else’s. I agree with that.

The Church needs a spokes person and representative and someone to annoint Saints but how many more doctrines and dogmas do we need, if all the Popes before for over 2000 years have been infallible?. I do see Pope Benedick renounced Limbo in 2007, although never a doctrine of the Church its been taught will into the 20th century…

I like Pope Benedick, he seems very conservative and humble and holy. I think Pope Benedick has very good sermons and writings, very inspirational and he himself said hes not infallible but usually right.🙂

All one needs to do is look at the history of the Church to know it isn’t always right.

I just want to add look at the questions on Caf, people aren’t even sure of what a sin is anymore, mortal or venial, so many gray areas now, all the questions about where the Church came up with this and that and then a hundred answers and opinions. Its just become so complicated with every little thing that its become confusing about many issues. I think even Priests are mixed up on things, I watch Ewtn and get conflicting info.

This is just my opinion, and I honor your opinion as well. 🙂
 
I believe everyone has put their own spin on the Bible even the Catholic Church.

Anyone’s opinion is as valid as anyone else’s. I agree with that.

The Church needs a spokes person and representative and someone to annoint Saints but how many more doctrines and dogmas do we need, if all the Popes before for over 2000 years have been infallible?. I do see Pope Benedick renounced Limbo in 2007, although never a doctrine of the Church its been taught will into the 20th century…

I like Pope Benedick, he seems very conservative and humble and holy. I think Pope Benedick has very good sermons and writings, very inspirational and he himself said hes not infallible but usually right.🙂

All one needs to do is look at the history of the Church to know it isn’t always right.

I just want to add look at the questions on Caf, people aren’t even sure of what a sin is anymore, mortal or venial, so many gray areas now, all the questions about where the Church came up with this and that and then a hundred answers and opinions. Its just become so complicated with every little thing that its become confusing about many issues. I think even Priests are mixed up on things, I watch Ewtn and get conflicting info.

This is just my opinion, and I honor your opinion as well. 🙂
Actually, as Catholics, we don’t have to rely on our own opinion. We can rely on what Christ teaches through His Church.

When Christ walked the earth, He taught orally. Nowhere do we see Him writing a book, or commanding anyone else to write a book. We do see Him, however, commanding the Apostles to go forth and teach “all” that He had taught them (Matt. 28:20). Yet, not everything Jesus taught is in the Bible (John 21:25). Much of it is in the oral teachings, what we call Sacred Tradition (tradition here doesn’t mean “customs” but has the older meaning, “teachings.”), that St. Paul refers to in 2 Thes 2:15.

The Apostles were taught by Christ. They, by Christ’s authority, taught their successors, the bishops, who did likewise, down through the centuries (almost 2000 years) to today. It is not by the power of man that the teaching of Christ has been thus passed down, but by the power of God.

SOME of what was passed down orally was written down. This, we call the New Testament. But, like any book, because man is prone to error, etc., it needs an authoritative and authentic interpreter. This is the living teaching body of the Church established by Christ, i.e., the Magisterium of the Church made up of the successor of St. Peter (the Pope) and the bishops in union with him.

The Bible refers to the Church as the “pillar and foundation of truth.” It doesn’t refer to the Bible as such. The Bible wasn’t compiled until the 4th century, by the Church. Until that time, there were over 300+ documents that were considered holy, etc. The Pope and the bishops got together, prayed to the Holy Spirit, and selected 27 of these 300+ documents and compiled them into what we now call the New Testament. So it is on the authority of the Catholic Church, led by the Holy Spirit, that we even have a New Testament today.

Also, consider that before the late 1800’s universal literacy wasn’t even a consideration. The vast majority of people for the vast majority of time Christianity has been on earth were illiterate. They could neither read nor write. So a “Bible reading” church would have been both impractical and impossible. Evidently, Jesus knew this and trained the Apostles orally, and they did likewise.
 
I see were about the same age and both grew up Catholic. I went to basic cathechism,
and well never questioned anything, and well that is the way it is, did what we were told.
Never new any different, never went to another church and never knew what Protestants were or thought, until, about 12 years ago, all of a sudden I have to leave work, and started watching TV and seen preachers on there, and started studying the Bible, and we just got Ewtn a few years ago… I also began reading the history of the Church and the founding fathers, and some of the Popes and Saints, the Cathechism, and I have an open mind and I have a couple Pastors I listen to on TV and I also believe they are very spirit filled men of God.

I am in no way degrading the Church or Popes, but I don’t thing anything or anybody is infallible, and I would not switch Churches.

Now your post leaves me to ask what happened to the rest of those documents,
when you stated,

It doesn’t refer to the Bible as such. The Bible wasn’t compiled until the 4th century, by the Church. Until that time, there were over 300+ documents that were considered holy, etc. The Pope and the bishops got together, prayed to the Holy Spirit, and selected 27 of these 300+ documents and compiled them into what we now call the New Testament
what happened to al those other document? Are they out there for reading.

See the more I’ve been reading the more I question things, thats the way I am I guess.
Not the basic stuff tho on confession, communion , mortal and venial sins.🙂
 
words are not final because they are infallible…instead they are infallible because they are final.

What is the difference, nothing, we have to assume Peter and all following Popes following him never made an errror, or the Church, well I don’t think we can say that can we??

I don’t believe something because I’m told to, thank goodness, although sometimes I have to admit I’m pretty gullible.🙂
There is a big difference, actually. The notion of infallibility does not apply to all that the Pope says…it only applies when specific criteria are met.

These criteria can be enumerated as follows:
  1. “the Roman Pontiff”
  2. “speaks ex cathedra” (“that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….”)
  3. “he defines”
  4. “that a doctrine concerning faith or morals”
  5. “must be held by the whole Church”
If the Pope makes such a statement then you can think whatever you think…however it is now the “official” position of the church and in keeping with Jesus’s promise in the Bible Catholics believe that the gates of hades will not overpower it (Matthew 16:18) - if you prefer to pick and choose which of these statements you trust as truth then good luck.
 
** infallibility does not apply to all that the Pope says**

I’m aware of that,
I’m talking no meat on Fridays, but now you can eat meat.
Need to be buried, now you can be creameated.
I’m not sure about organ donations, I think they said thats ok now.
they say limbo was never a teaching of the Church but we were taught limbo, but had a hard time with that one.

I just don’t know how they can change their minds,

but I guess whatever they bound on earth will be bound in heaven, right.🙂
 
** infallibility does not apply to all that the Pope says**

I’m aware of that,
Sometimes I wonder about that, you still do not fully understand from what I read.
I’m talking no meat on Fridays, but now you can eat meat.
This is a Disapline, a rule to help us remember the sacrifice of Jesus on Good Friday. Still recomended, but you can substitute some other good deed. There were always dispensations for special reasons, and in parts of the world the abstainance from meat didn’t apply.
Need to be buried, now you can be creameated.
Came about because of those who burned the bodies and denied the resurection.
I’m not sure about organ donations, I think they said thats ok now.
Yes, you are helping another person to survive. Only recently have we gained the technology and medical ability that was not possibly in the past.
they say limbo was never a teaching of the Church but we were taught limbo, but had a hard time with that one.
Yes, the nuns taught that as a possibility, but it was never official doctrine. It gave hope to those who lost babies at birth.
I just don’t know how they can change their minds,
They have not changed the Deposit of Faith or Dogma, but only Disapline and Devotions. Throughout history the Church has applied different manners of helping the faithful to better practice and understand their Catholic Faith, this is no different.
but I guess whatever they bound on earth will be bound in heaven, right.🙂
Yes, although most of what you list does not fall under changing doctrine.

Kotton
 
Hi. I’ve read that Pope Honorius I, who reigned from 625 to 638, was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth General Council (or Third Council of Constantinople) for subscribing to monothelitism. What implication does this have on papal infallibility and papal supremacy? If a pope can be “a heretic, not in intention, but in fact” (as Catholic Encylopedia says), how are we sure that the reigning pope and those before him were not heretical if no ecumenical council was there to anathematize him?

From oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Pope_Honorius_I
Perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of infallibility.

The charism of infallibility does not protect the belief of any single person. Rather, it protects the Faith of the Church as a whole.

The Church’s teaching on infallibility does not guarantee that an individual Pope will never be a heretic. Rather, the teaching on infallibility guarantees that heresy will never be taught as the public Faith of the Church.

As a matter of act, Pope Honorius, even while being branded a heretic, never did publicly teach the heresy of monothelitism. So the Church’s teaching on “papal infallibility” has not suffered in the least.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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