Hermaphrodites

[mcs7474]

They should remain single. Some people are not made for marriage…

 

[Howard_Roark]

Well, I’m sure we can find some way to offend you.

 

[Holly3278]

Well, I’m sure we can find some way to offend you.

LOL! Here’s a hint, say something positive about abortion (if indeed you can find anything positive about it). That would offend me deeply. I am as strongly pro-life as they come and I hate abortion!

 

[aspawloski4th]

Don’t tell me you’re a bricklayer.

To clarify, this is the Catholic Answer message board about Catholicism as defined by the Catholic Church.

I guarantee the Catholic Church doesn’t assign babies a sex at birth in the USA.

So, who are you upset at?

• I never said the church did. Im upset psychology doesnt mean a thing to some.*

 

[cyberwolf001]

The question of who it is that is being shallow must ultimately turn on what it is that is objectively true and how close our deliberations come to that truth. The Church teaches that there are only two genders, male and female, and therefore it follows that every person created is either one or the other. This is an objective reality completely independent of whatever the individual in question may feel about it.

Then the existance of certain forms of Hermaphrodites means the church teaching is wrong. If it is Dogmatic teaching then it is REALLY bad as it would mean the Catholic Church is not THE one true Church.

Be careful when saying something is Church teaching for just that reason.

With my sirname I find that to be an ethnic slur. Everyone here knows ever herphrodites are asigned a gender at birth ever if one has organs from both sexes. It is also well known that irreguardless of having both sets that person is going to psychologically identify as one gender of the other in most cases. Thats what Id go with. appearnce and body= superficial. Mind, sprit, and soul= deep.

Okay your just looking to be offended now buster.

Thanks, and I know, so many people are so touchy here.

Maybe we should tell some Polish jokes to lighten the mood.



Or Irish jokes, I’m Irish.

Some one called for Irish Jokes?

My favorite is this:

The American tourist was walking around the cathedral admiring the architecture.
‘Are you enjoying your visit to Ireland?’ asked a young priest.
‘Very much, Father, but I can’t get on with the whiskey it’s far too strong for me,’ said the Yank.
‘Why so?’ asked the priest.
‘Well, I got drunk on it on Saturday night and crashed out unconscious. Sunday morning I woke at 5 a.m. bright as a button. I went to 6 o’clock mass, 7 o’clock mass, 8 o’clock, nine, ten and eleven o’clock mass. Then I went to afternoon Rosary, sermon, Stations of the Cross and Benediction!’
‘So what’s wrong with that?’ asked the priest.
‘I’m a Protestant!’ said the tourist.

Well, I guess I’m a mixed breed then. I have Irish, German, Scottish, and Welsh in me. But all in all, I’m American!

Irish, Scottish, English, Welsh, German, Cherokee, Comanche, Apache and African.

They should remain single. Some people are not made for marriage…

That Church teaching or your view?

Well, I’m sure we can find some way to offend you.

Just go to the political section and post. The personal attacks or the fighting will.

 

[Holly3278]

• I never said the church did. Im upset psychology doesnt mean a thing to some.*

What do you mean that you are upset that psychology doesn’t mean a thing to some? Are you talking about the same psychologists who after being pressured by gay rights activists declared homosexuality to not be a mental disorder? Or are you talking about the same psychologists who refuse to recognize post-abortion syndrome as a real mental illness?

I have a great deal of respect for psychologists and psychiatrists but I also realize that modern psychology and psychiatry is flawed.

 

[porthos11]

How bout DNA testing?

 

[Cactus]

I’ve always thought of hermaphodites as a type of ship, such as a hermaphodite brig. This “what am I?” gender stuff is just silly.

 

[Holly3278]

How bout DNA testing?

From what I understand, DNA testing can even be inconclusive sometimes due to an extra chromosome or something. I may be wrong on that one though. I’ll leave the answering of this one to the more experienced and educated posters.

 

[Other_Eric]

Then the existance of certain forms of Hermaphrodites means the church teaching is wrong. If it is Dogmatic teaching then it is REALLY bad as it would mean the Catholic Church is not THE one true Church.

Be careful when saying something is Church teaching for just that reason.

There is no form of hermaphrodite whose existence can contradict the fundamental truth of there being only two sexes. Whatever chromosomal anomaly one can find can do nothing to alter this truth. All one can do is find a man or a woman whose body has been deformed in some fashion. This cannot be said to alter the reality of such a subject being either a man or a woman.

 

[Holly3278]

There is no form of hermaphrodite whose existence can contradict the fundamental truth of there being only two sexes. Whatever chromosomal anomaly one can find can do nothing to alter this truth. All one can do is find a man or a woman whose body has been deformed in some fashion. This cannot be said to alter the reality of such a subject being either a man or a woman.

Exactly! And besides that, if there truly was a “third gender” it would be much more common. And another thing, what exactly would be the natural purpose of a third gender? We all know that everything must have a natural purpose so what would be the purpose of a third gender?

 

[pathia]

How bout DNA testing?

I have XX, XY and XXY chromosomes. The only way to find out which would be more numerous would be to test every cell in my body, which is impossible and would kill me.

There are conditions that result in a XX male (that can even have kids sometimes!) and there are many XY women in the world, it is a condition known as CAIS, complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. It used to be known as testicular feminization, but like the world hermaphrodite itself, it was dropped for being somewhat insulting.

Exactly! And besides that, if there truly was a “third gender” it would be much more common. And another thing, what exactly would be the natural purpose of a third gender? We all know that everything must have a natural purpose so what would be the purpose of a third gender?

There are over 100,000 intersexed individuals in the USA alone. We are hidden from society, most of the defects are ‘fixed’ at birth and no visible to the normal observing eye.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I have XX, XY and XXY chromosomes. The only way to find out which would be more numerous would be to test every cell in my body, which is impossible and would kill me.

I would think a statistical sample might be sufficient to estimate the number.

There are conditions that result in a XX male (that can even have kids sometimes!) and there are many XY women in the world, it is a condition known as CAIS, complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. It used to be known as testicular feminization, but like the world hermaphrodite itself, it was dropped for being somewhat insulting.

I can understand the XY being able to become feminine, physically, from the standpoint of the extra information in the Y chromasome being suppressed. However, my understanding of Parthenogenesis (which is perhaps in error?) is that virgin births are exclusively female in nature.
(as are teratomas, eg: spontaneously generated hair, limbs, etc – in the womb.)
no masculine cases have ever been recorded that I know of – although my information is based on older research.

From this, I gather that there are no recorded cases of an XY mother having a boy. Which has led me to consider in the past that Mary had no Y chromasome of her own to pass on to a son – although I suspected suppression of the Y was possible.

But saying there can be an XX Male would indicate that the Y chromasome contained no essential function at all. Do you know of specific, credible, studies that I might learn more about this from? I am not necessarily disagreeing – but I do find this hard to believe with my present knowledge. eg: I have seen the remark in an article by James Akin linked in a previous thread, but he gave no specifics…

There are over 100,000 intersexed individuals in the USA alone. We are hidden from society, most of the defects are ‘fixed’ at birth and no visible to the normal observing eye.

And there is a case of a non-intersexed male made into a female by an accident during a botched circumcision – (mentioned by a prof. in a Theo 4xx class I took.) who’s male characteristic eventually led to suicide because the child did not know why a female would want to be a male. Eg: The child was not fully informed of what happened, and YET those longitudinally studying the child prior to the suicide were gleefully claiming the surgery was a success – when in fact, there were deep problems.

 

[Howard_Roark]

1.If anyone wants to understand a little about the genetics of hermaphroditism, Google works nicely for that. Suffice to say, it is a real genetic condition that thousands suffer from, as has been posted.

2.No one should generalize about the condition, it has almost as many physcial manifestations as there are people who suffer from it. It is a widely varying thing.

3.For reason #2, the Church does not make any blanket statements about the condition (that I’m aware of) and instead there are medical theology manuals (with Imprimaturs) which lay out the conditions under which such a condition might disallow someone to receive the sacrament of matrimony or orders.

4.If someone wants to bother to read some of these books, you will find that the Catholic position is very positive toward helping a person suffering from a hermaphroditic condition find God’s purpose for their life and find temporal contentment when possible. If, for example, surgery will restore some manner of function to a malformed organ, this is certainly allowable, and can render a person fit for a sacrament they were not fit for before.

This is not the kind of thing you can read about on the web. I got my books on Catholic medical Ethics from the bookstores at a couple of seminaries I visited. I highly recommend interested people to do something similar and get good resources.

 

[pathia]

I would think a statistical sample might be sufficient to estimate the number.

But saying there can be an XX Male would indicate that the Y chromasome contained no essential function at all. Do you know of specific, credible, studies that I might learn more about this from? I am not necessarily disagreeing – but I do find this hard to believe with my present knowledge. eg: I have seen the remark in an article by James Akin linked in a previous thread, but he gave no specifics…

medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25059

The SRY gene is the main key thing to make a male a male, and it can sometimes end up on a X chromosome. The Y Chromosome is indeed very lacking in function, that is not to say it has NONE, but if a fetus were to be YY, or Y0 (Only one chromosome) it would spontaneously abort. However, X0, Turner’s syndrome is a viable chromosome pattern.

As for my chromosomes, do you have ANY idea how expensive a sampling like that will be? Regardless, how it falls down, is, some structures in my body seem to be one kind, others the other. IE: My white blood cells are XY, the cells on my tongue are XXY and my skin cells seem to be XX.

The differentiation is different along different cell lines, or that’s how it was the last time I was examined. It’s been a long time, and it is incredibly expensive and insurance does not pay for it, if I could even get insurance.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25059

The SRY gene is the main key thing to make a male a male, and it can sometimes end up on a X chromosome.

Hmmm… OK, so far, that is possible.

The Y Chromosome is indeed very lacking in function, that is not to say it has NONE, but if a fetus were to be YY, or Y0 (Only one chromosome) it would spontaneously abort. However, X0, Turner’s syndrome is a viable chromosome pattern.

Whoa, I don’t follow your logic there.

A haploid cell with a Y0 configuration is normally called a male sperm, as I understand it. So if the woman produced sperm, but no eggs, then it would make sense that the sperm from her partner would be useless… sperm don’t fertilize sperm properly – the cell has a different structure.

On the other hand, for a woman to produce eggs with the Y0 configuration would suggest that the egg was masculine before it was fertilized. So the egg would be abnormal – if still functional. Since there must be a mechanism which generally prevents haploid sperm from implanting as a baby by itself – (a million+ pregnancies for 1 intercourse) – it follows there is a mechanism designed to reject cells which are haploid Y.

The Y0 is simply rejected by the mother or it rejects her.
BUT a Y0 sperm is perfectly normal, as far as I know. I haven’t studied that part in detail yet, perhaps I’ll ask my dad with the PhD …

As for my chromosomes, do you have ANY idea how expensive a sampling like that will be? Regardless, how it falls down, is, some structures in my body seem to be one kind, others the other. IE: My white blood cells are XY, the cells on my tongue are XXY and my skin cells seem to be XX.

Oh, really?


So what are your red blood cells… or have you done a blood test? hmmm … Also, you can send a sample of blood to a lab, even without a doctor taking the sample…
It is FAR less expensive than most people would expect…

In fact some colleges have biology labs equipped with sufficient equipment to do this kind of thing – they would probably be interested enough in you to process a few free samples… as long as they get to keep some pictures…
In any event, costly isn’t the same as deadly.

The differentiation is different along different cell lines, or that’s how it was the last time I was examined. It’s been a long time, and it is incredibly expensive and insurance does not pay for it, if I could even get insurance.

Yeah, that sounds about right. So are you a single genetic
mosaic, or a fusion of twins in the womb?

St. Thomas was SOOO right when he said we are composite creatures.

P.S.
I don’t have insurance either…
But my family does.

Peace of Christ be with you.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

1.If anyone wants to understand a little about the genetics of hermaphroditism, Google works nicely for that. Suffice to say, it is a real genetic condition that thousands suffer from, as has been posted.

Umm, the problem is that I normally find lots of gray literature in these kinds of searches – and gray literature, not being peer reviewed, can be easily be biased by political issues…

There is some good information out there, but it is hard to know what is what…

 

[pathia]

So what are your red blood cells… or have you done a blood test? hmmm … Also, you can send a sample of blood to a lab, even without a doctor taking the sample…
It is FAR less expensive than most people would expect…

Last time I checked, I’m not a bird. Red blood cells don’t have a nucleus, thus, no DNA to check, that’s why I said white blood cells.

As for an expense, well, I think $12,000 is expensive and that’s what the last round of this stuff cost me out of pocket.

 

[Holly3278]

There are over 100,000 intersexed individuals in the USA alone. We are hidden from society, most of the defects are ‘fixed’ at birth and no visible to the normal observing eye.

100,000 out of however many live in the United States is a very small number.

 

[pathia]

100,000 out of however many live in the United States is a very small number.

Can you imagine that many people in one place at a time? It’s not so small as you might think. In comparison to the whole country? Of course it’s small compared to that, but quite a few of us have horror stories on what was done to us, because we were born differently.

I had operations done on me, mostly at the suggestion of my parent’s priests of the time. So the Church DOES ‘suggest’ or ‘pick’ or made medical choices. Maybe the priests overstepped my bounds in my case, but it doesn’t change the fact that they did so.