Heterodox priests

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Robert_Caritas

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Dear all,

I am a college student, and usually attend weekly mass on my campus. We are usually between 3 and 10 people at this mass; my college is not very religious, to say the least. I recently got much more involved in religion than I used to (almost a re-conversion actually), and this priest has been my main contact with the Church. Sadly, when I used to think that he was just a bit heterodox, through a conversation today it appears that he is almost agnostic. His point of view is that the Catholic religion is only one truth among many, and that we should not believe what the Bible says without verifying it with our own experience.
He said that it is impossible that the Bible is 100% accurate, because he feels that science contradicts it, and that science must be more correct.
I think he believes that religion is an important cultural force, but that most of the Christian beliefs are probably inaccurate to some extent ( the personal God, the sonship, heaven and hell, angels and demons, etc).
Thankfully, I have been traveling a lot the past few months, have been to confession with many other priests, and I even got the chance to go to Lourdes. I have also been reading as much as I can find about Christianity, and praying. So I can take his advice critically.

My question to you, is how do you handle this situation? This has kind of shocked me. As a priest, he deserves a level of respect, as a heterodox preacher, he could be doing quite a lot of harm. I believe that consciously heterodox Christianity is extremely harmful as it promotes what Jesus-Christ practically condemned the most, religious hypocrisy.

I know that this matter is mostly in God’s hands – and as such I will pray for this priest and those in his care – but do you have any particular advice?
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   All the best,

 Robert
(This is my first post – I hope that it is in the right section, please tell me if it isn’t.)
 
It is obvious you respect this priest because he is a priest and that’s all good. 👍 I think the best thing you can do is pray for him. I don’t think he’d listen to anything you have to say, but you never know. If the Holy Spirit gives you the right opportunity and the right words, you might be able to help him see that his doubts are helping no one, especially himself. We can’t know what happened in this man’s life to make him doubtful and jaded (he sounds jaded to me from what you wrote, but I may be wrong), but God can turn anyone around and reinvigorate him and his faith. So, pray for him, but don’t listen to him when he says such things. I will remember him in my prayers, too.
 
Thank you, I hadn’t thought about his past experiences. I think he comes from a country with great political turmoil, and I suspect he has experienced corruption in his Church hierarchy. This doesn’t excuse anything, but it does present a different picture.
Thank you for your prayers.
 
It sounds like this priest is actually telling you what the Church teaches.

The Church recognizes that other religions have truth in them and that those who seek God in these religions, can be saved.

Also, the Bible is not 100% accurate if read literally.

Your priest may be trying to advise you on not taking it literally, but using the correct interpretation, as taught by the Church which it is true.

Remember, faith must always be Christ centered and many get led astray with rigid religiosity.

Jim
 
Thanks Jim,
Code: 
It's good to be reminded this. 
I agree that religiosity solely for religions sake, and biblical fundamentalism are extremes, and most of the time empty. But it is also important to believe the supernatural elements of the faith -- the miracles, and the revelations -- and to act accordingly.
Every time that I ventured near supernatural aspects in our conversation (such as having a conversation with God in prayer), he ignored them or steered me away from them. 
I really don't want to accuse him too much of anything. All this is really how he appears to me in after mass conversations -- I don't want to judge someone who has dedicated his life to the Church on so few elements.
This priest does seem jaded about the faith, and it saddens me.
 
The Bible is 100% accurate in matters of faith and morals (infallability). Many Catholics believe that it is 100% accurate as a historical document (inerrancy). As far as I know, you are free to believe or not its inerrancy. The Bible has some apparent contradictions: was the Last Supper a Seder Meal, or a meal of Preparation for Pesach? The Gospels differ in their accounts.

What you should determine from this priest is if he believes in Blblical infallibility. This is an essential dogma for salvation. The Word of God is personified by Jesus and lives on in Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition.
 
Robert_Caritas said:
Thanks Jim,
Code: 
It's good to be reminded this. 
I agree that religiosity solely for religions sake, and biblical fundamentalism are extremes, and most of the time empty. But it is also important to believe the supernatural elements of the faith -- the miracles, and the revelations -- and to act accordingly.
Every time that I ventured near supernatural aspects in our conversation (such as having a conversation with God in prayer), he ignored them or steered me away from them. 
I really don't want to accuse him too much of anything. All this is really how he appears to me in after mass conversations -- I don't want to judge someone who has dedicated his life to the Church on so few elements.
This priest does seem jaded about the faith, and it saddens me.
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Is this priest a diocesan priest or does he belong to a religious order?

I learned years ago, there is a marked difference in their knowledge on spirituality.

Jim
 
I’m not sure, he is the chaplain of a hospital, and is from Africa. He also has a degree from a Roman university. So I’m not too sure if he belongs to a world wide order, or if he was just transferred to the diocese. He wears normal blacks and a roman collar anyway.
I don’t think that I will “test” his beliefs on biblical infallibility or the Eucharist, but these are good markers to have in mind for further conversation. I will try to keep praying for him, and I think I will keep on attending the campus mass. It would be too sad if this tiny congregation got even smaller.

When we speak though it is very awkward when I feel the need to correct him (eg: explain why a certain ancient belief might seem absurd, but in fact is of high spiritual importance). As I feel in no position to be a teacher to a priest, I haven’t let myself do this. I just state what I believe honestly. I think this is the best approach for now. If I met an outright heretical priest, I think that I would write to the bishop, but this seems excessive here.
 
Robert_Caritas said:
Dear all,

I am a college student, and usually attend weekly mass on my campus. We are usually between 3 and 10 people at this mass; my college is not very religious, to say the least. I recently got much more involved in religion than I used to (almost a re-conversion actually), and this priest has been my main contact with the Church. Sadly, when I used to think that he was just a bit heterodox, through a conversation today it appears that he is almost agnostic. His point of view is that the Catholic religion is only one truth among many, and that we should not believe what the Bible says without verifying it with our own experience.
He said that it is impossible that the Bible is 100% accurate, because he feels that science contradicts it, and that science must be more correct.
I think he believes that religion is an important cultural force, but that most of the Christian beliefs are probably inaccurate to some extent ( the personal God, the sonship, heaven and hell, angels and demons, etc).
Thankfully, I have been traveling a lot the past few months, have been to confession with many other priests, and I even got the chance to go to Lourdes. I have also been reading as much as I can find about Christianity, and praying. So I can take his advice critically.

My question to you, is how do you handle this situation? This has kind of shocked me. As a priest, he deserves a level of respect, as a heterodox preacher, he could be doing quite a lot of harm. I believe that consciously heterodox Christianity is extremely harmful as it promotes what Jesus-Christ practically condemned the most, religious hypocrisy.
Click to expand...
This is truly horrifying. If he thinks that most of the Christian beliefs are inaccurate, then he is not Christian or Catholic. If he is not Catholic, he can’t be a priest.

“The Bible is not 100% accurate, because science contradicts it, and science must be more correct.” He has more faith in the findings of man than in the Word of God, which is a grave error. Although some things in the Bible might not be completely historically accurate as they are literally written, all of the doctrines and morals derived from them, as infallibly interpreted by the Church, are 100% accurate, even if science seems to contradict it. Didn’t God create science?

“We should not believe what the Bible says without verifying it with our own experience.” More faithlessness in the Word of God.

“The Catholic religion is only one truth among many.” This is what Masons believe. It is fundamentally heretical, because believing in the Catholic faith necessarily requires upholding it as the truth and rejecting other religions in favor of Catholicism.

This priest you are speaking of is not merely heterodox, he is a heretic and has thus incurred latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication under canon 1364 of the Code of Canon Law. I would advise contacting the Ordinary so that you can have an orthodox Catholic priest on your campus (orthodox, not Orthodox) and praying for his conversion.
 
Nat682 said:
This is truly horrifying. If he thinks that most of the Christian beliefs are inaccurate, then he is not Christian or Catholic. If he is not Catholic, he can’t be a priest.

“The Bible is not 100% accurate, because science contradicts it, and science must be more correct.” He has more faith in the findings of man than in the Word of God, which is a grave error. Although some things in the Bible might not be completely historically accurate as they are literally written, all of the doctrines and morals derived from them, as infallibly interpreted by the Church, are 100% accurate, even if science seems to contradict it. Didn’t God create science?

“We should not believe what the Bible says without verifying it with our own experience.” More faithlessness in the Word of God.

“The Catholic religion is only one truth among many.” This is what Masons believe. It is fundamentally heretical, because believing in the Catholic faith necessarily requires upholding it as the truth and rejecting other religions in favor of Catholicism.

This priest you are speaking of is not merely heterodox, he is a heretic and has thus incurred latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication under canon 1364 of the Code of Canon Law. I would advise contacting the Ordinary so that you can have an orthodox Catholic priest on your campus (orthodox, not Orthodox) and praying for his conversion.
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whoa cowboy! rein it in a bit. unless i’m missing something, excommunicating a priest is waay above your pay grade.
 
Robert_Caritas said:
I’m not sure, he is the chaplain of a hospital, and is from Africa. He also has a degree from a Roman university. So I’m not too sure if he belongs to a world wide order, or if he was just transferred to the diocese. He wears normal blacks and a roman collar anyway.
I don’t think that I will “test” his beliefs on biblical infallibility or the Eucharist, but these are good markers to have in mind for further conversation. I will try to keep praying for him, and I think I will keep on attending the campus mass. It would be too sad if this tiny congregation got even smaller.

When we speak though it is very awkward when I feel the need to correct him (eg: explain why a certain ancient belief might seem absurd, but in fact is of high spiritual importance). As I feel in no position to be a teacher to a priest, I haven’t let myself do this. I just state what I believe honestly. I think this is the best approach for now. If I met an outright heretical priest, I think that I would write to the bishop, but this seems excessive here.
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Well then all you can do is, pray for him and be humble.

Until God changes the situation, just go with it.

Jim
 
edited

Jim, here is a great letter from an Orthodox saint about a similar situation. But in any case, the only real solution is prayer and humility (which is not easy).
stmaximus.org/files/Documents/BadPriest.htm

Also, from what I described, does this priest sound like a diocesan priest or one from an order? Or could he be either?
 
Robert_Caritas said:
edited

Jim, here is a great letter from an Orthodox saint about a similar situation. But in any case, the only real solution is prayer and humility (which is not easy).
stmaximus.org/files/Documents/BadPriest.htm

Also, from what I described, does this priest sound like a diocesan priest or one from an order? Or could he be either?
Click to expand...
Well of course this is from the Russian Orthodox Saint, St. Theophan te Recluse.

Not sure you can apply this in your own situation because there is a difference on how priest are assigned to parishes in the Orthodox Church compared to how they are assigned in the Roman Catholic Church. In the Roman Catholic Church, it’s the Bishops call, not the parishioners, although the parishioners can asked the Bishop to remove a priest from their parish, but the reasons would be severe.

Jim
 
Elizium23 said:
The Bible is 100% accurate in matters of faith and morals (infallability). Many Catholics believe that it is 100% accurate as a historical document (inerrancy). As far as I know, you are free to believe or not its inerrancy. The Bible has some apparent contradictions: was the Last Supper a Seder Meal, or a meal of Preparation for Pesach? The Gospels differ in their accounts.
.
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the last supper was the passover meal. it had to do with the jewish leaders at the time taking on ceasars new calendar. some refused the Essenes and continued with the original jewish calendar, when Jesus tells the disciples to go into town and find a man carrying water this is the indicator, as these men lived celibate lives with no women in their community, so they were easily distinguishable, as women would have carried the water in society.
so Jesus both celibrated the passover as the last supper and also died on the passover as the sacrifical lamb.
pope benedict wrote about this a few years ago i’ll try and find the link
 
JimR-OCDS said:
It sounds like this priest is actually telling you what the Church teaches.

Your priest may be trying to advise you on not taking it literally, but using the correct interpretation, as taught by the Church which it is true.

Remember, faith must always be Christ centered and many get led astray with rigid religiosity.

Jim
Click to expand...
not sure how you got that from the original post. as you say many get led a stray thinking they know more than the church. usualy you find them on about homesexual relationships are okay, all religions are equal, contraception is fine etc
 
I’m not sure who this priest is. If he isn’t in charge of the campus minintry at your university, you could move on from him. It would be like a bad friend–if he is creating spiritual, disturbance or anxiety in you, you don’t owe him your association. If he is the pastor over the Catholic at the university, that is more of a difficult situation, that you could deal with depending on the general situation. But you can’t count on being spiritually fed by him. If he is teaching these things during the mass, you ought to go to mass with another priest at the least, I would say.
 
I think that we should not judge persons, nor label them as orthodox and heterodox. But we can judge words and actions.

There are many priests whose words are not in agreement with Church teaching. There is not much you can do about that. Pray. And make sure that you have not misunderstood what the Church teaches, or what that priest said.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
It sounds like this priest is actually telling you what the Church teaches.

The Church recognizes that other religions have truth in them and that those who seek God in these religions, can be saved.

Also, the Bible is not 100% accurate if read literally.

Your priest may be trying to advise you on not taking it literally, but using the correct interpretation, as taught by the Church which it is true.

Remember, faith must always be Christ centered and many get led astray with rigid religiosity.

Jim
Click to expand...
And we need to be careful about the representation of the priests views here, as he is not here:shrug:to defend himself, which really he should be allowed to do.
After all this is a second hand account of his views, based on conversations / homilies etc. Very easy to take a comment, or even a single conversation out of context and then misrepresent someone.Sometimes it seems that people here are ready to just pounce on their priest at the first opportunity, and to write a strongly worded letter to their bishop complaining:tsktsk:

If you have concerns, talk with your priest about them. Don’t jump on him just after mass trying to catch him out. Take one topic or point of concern at a time and reflect on it. Don’t jump from one topic to another trying to catch him out, which people do all the time.
And don’t forget, your priest is human too. And believe it or not, he may not be a theologian, he may not have all the answers you are looking for, and occasionally, people make genuine mistakes when put under pressure.
 
Pilgrim1701 said:
And we need to be careful about the representation of the priests views here, as he is not here:shrug:to defend himself, which really he should be allowed to do.
After all this is a second hand account of his views, based on conversations / homilies etc. Very easy to take a comment, or even a single conversation out of context and then misrepresent someone.Sometimes it seems that people here are ready to just pounce on their priest at the first opportunity, and to write a strongly worded letter to their bishop complaining:tsktsk:

If you have concerns, talk with your priest about them. Don’t jump on him just after mass trying to catch him out. Take one topic or point of concern at a time and reflect on it. Don’t jump from one topic to another trying to catch him out, which people do all the time.
And don’t forget, your priest is human too. And believe it or not, he may not be a theologian, he may not have all the answers you are looking for, and occasionally, people make genuine mistakes when put under pressure.
Click to expand...
I think you meant to address your reply to the OP, but copied mine, which is essentially saying the same thing you’re saying. 🤷

Jim
 
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