hey ATHIESTS, was Hitler right?

[justinthemartyr]

Was Hitler Right? Or: Why Atheists Have No Rights); Part 1
by: John Martignoni
Why do we, as human beings, have value?

Why do we, as human beings, have value? Or, do we have value? All of you have heard about the mass extermination of the Jews that the Nazis carried out in the 30’s and 40’s that we now refer to as the Holocaust. Would you believe me, then, if I said that not a single human being died in the concentration camps? Not one single human being died in the concentration camps!
How can I say that? I can say that because by German law that existed at the time, Jews were legally considered “not fully human.” They were classified as a “sub-human” species. Legally speaking, they were “non-persons.” One group of people passed laws that said another group of people were not really human beings. So, I say again, no human beings died in the concentration camps. Am I right or am I wrong?

I can just see some of you shaking your heads to tell me that I’m wrong. So, okay, let’s say they were human beings. So what? Why should we care? What value are they to us? Again, the question I am trying to get at here is, how is it that our lives have value? How do we determine whether or not any given human life has value?

Do we have value only if we can be productive, if we have a job, or if we serve some useful purpose? Do we have value only if someone else thinks we have value? Do we have value only if we have an IQ of 100 or higher? Do we have value only if someone else loves us? Do we have value only if our “quality of life” meets some arbitrary standard set by others?

Well, I maintain, and I think most of you will agree with me, that we have value simply because we are alive…that human life has inherent value. In other words, simply because it is human life, it has value. But, what is my basis for saying that? It is this: we have value as human beings because God gives us value…He gives us value by His love for us.

We don’t have value because we are productive. We don’t have value because we are useful. We don’t have value because someone else thinks we have value. We don’t have value because we have an IQ of 100 or higher. We don’t have value because another human being loves us. We don¹t have value because we have some arbitrary level of “quality of life.” We have value, because God loves us. Any other line of reasoning leaves an opening for someone, somewhere, at some point in time, to declare somebody else as having no value…which is exactly what happened to the Jews in Europe 70 years ago.

This is why people who do not believe in God cannot offer any objective reason for saying that they themselves have value as human beings. Without God, everything becomes subjective…merely one person’s opinion versus another person’s opinion…and the strongest person’s opinon prevails. Without God, might, in essence, makes right. I’ve talked to atheists before and I’ve asked them if what Hitler did to the Jews was wrong. And they answered that of course it was! Then I asked them, why? Why was it wrong for Hitler to kill six million Jews? Essentially, all they could answer me with was, “Well, it just was.”

All they had to back their viewpoint was their own subjective opinion. They could not give me one objective reason, for why the Holocaust was wrong. And I have asked that question of some folks who have described themselves as “liberals.” What answer did I get? None. Even though I’ve asked the question several times, I have never had a self-described “liberal” even attempt to provide me with an answer. I believe they recognize that if they give me an answer to my question, it can and will be used against them to show that they are moral hypocrites in their support of abortion and stem cell research and euthanasia and so on.

Without God, you can’t make the case that the Holocaust was wrong. In fact, without God, you can’t make the case that any killing is wrong. Without God, you can’t make the case that the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were wrong. After all, without God, we are just animals, and no one says that one animal killing another animal is morally wrong.

Hitler was wrong if, and only if, God exists. If God does not exist, then might makes right and Hitler was the mightiest in Germany at the time, so he had every right to do what he did. This causes problems for any self-proclaimed atheists (and those who side with them) who wish to remove God from everything.

read the rest here phatmass.com/phorum/lofiversion/index.php/t55131.html

 

[ErikaA]

I liked your piece. It’s hard hitting and I agree with your premise. It’d be interesting to see how many responses you get.

Just a tiny note, I understand and respect your passion but I think the article might read better if it came across a little less vitriolic. Still though, I’m with you.

 

[Mirdath]

(I read the title of the thread to myself in a The Warriors voice and cracked up – hey aaaatheists, come out and play-ay!)

‘My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.’ - A. H., 1922

‘We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls… We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity… in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.’ - A. H., 1928

‘However weak the individual may be when compared with the omnipotence and will of Providence, yet at the moment when he acts as Providence would have him act he becomes immeasurably strong. Then there streams down upon him that force which has marked all greatness in the world’s history. And when I look back on the five years which lie behind us, then I feel that I am justified in saying: That has not been the work of man alone.’ - A. H., 1937

‘We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.’ - A. H., 1933

I’m going to go with ‘no’. Your ball.

 

[ralphinal]

I am a fan of John Martignoni. I would have to say, however, that this one is not a good way to discuss with athiests. I think that many of them would not accept that the only objective way that life can have meaning is if there was a God. In fact, this article would probably do more harm than good by making it seem like you think athiests are like Hitler. In fact, I will be surprized if any of them post on this thread.

 

[notself]

One should not think that the only reason for kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and altruism is because you are ordered to be so.

When caring for others, one cares for oneself.

 

[inthecloud]

Even better question was Stalin right?

 

[notself]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

From Wiki

Under the Christian Keiser of Germany

The Herero and Namaqua Genocide occurred in German South-West Africa (modern day Namibia) from 1904 until 1907, during the scramble for Africa… In total, some 65,000 Herero (80% of the total Herero population), and 10,000 Nama (50% of the total Nama population) perished. Characteristic of the genocide was death by starvation and the poisoning of wells for the Herero and Nama population that was trapped in the Namib Desert.

Protestant agains Catholic Genocide in Ireland.

Noted professor of International Law at the University of Illinois, Francis A. Boyle, finding that the British… committed genocide, issued a formal legal opinion to the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education on May 2, 1996, stating that “Clearly, during [the Irish Potato Famine] years [of] 1845 to 1850 the British government pursued a policy of mass starvation in Ireland with intent to destroy in substantial part the national, ethnical, and racial group commonly known as the Irish People.” [58][59] Prominent international law professor Charles E. Rice of Notre Dame likewise issued a formal opinion, also based on Article 2, that the British had committed genocide.[60]

Orthodox Christians of Russia

During the last decade or so, especially after the two Chechen wars, pro-Chechen groups started to investigate the history of the Caucasian War and came to label the Caucasian Muhajirism as a “Circassian ethnic cleansing”,… During these events, and the preceding Caucasian War, at least hundreds of thousands of people were “killed or starved to death”, with exact figures unknown. [18]…
“according to the official tsarist documents more than 400,000 Circassians were killed, 497,000 were forced to flee abroad to Turkey, and only 80,000 were left alive in their native area.”[19]

More Recently

Guatemala 1968-1996
Main article: Guatemalan civil war
During the Guatemalan civil war, some 200,000 people died. More than one million people were forced to flee their homes and hundreds of villages were destroyed. The officially chartered Historical Clarification Commission attributed more than 93% of documented violations of human rights; and that Maya Indians accounted for 83% of the victims. It concluded in 1999 that state actions constituted genocide.[95][96]

Christians working with Jews

The Sabra and Shatila massacre was carried out in September 1982 against Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps by Lebanese Maronite Christian/Phalange militias, and under the vigilance of several Israel officials, near the beginning of the 1982–2000 South Lebanon conflict. The number of victims of the massacre is estimated at 700-3500. Responsibility for the massacre has been attributed to the Phalangists as direct perpetrators, and to Israel as the occupying army. [118]

In Catholic Brazil

In November 2005 during an investigation by the Brazilian authorities, code-named Operation Rio Pardo, Mario Lucio Avelar, a Brazilian public prosecutor in the city of Cuiabá, told Survival International that he believed there were sufficient grounds to prosecute for genocide of the Rio Pardo Indians. In November 2006 twenty-nine people were held in custody for the alleged genocide with others such as a former police commander and the governor of Mato Grosso state implicated in the alleged.[147][148]

In a newsletter published on 7 August 2006 the Indianist Missionary Council reported that: "In a plenary session, the [Brizillian] Supreme Federal Court (STF) reaffirmed that the crime known as the Haximu Massacre [perpetrated on the Yanomami Indians in 1993][149] was a genocide… Commenting on the case the NGO Survival International said “The UN convention on genocide, ratified by Brazil, states that the killing ‘with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group’ is genocide. The Supreme Court’s ruling is highly significant and sends an important warning to those who continue to commit crimes against indigenous peoples in Brazil.”[149]

 

[justinthemartyr]

uh, who claimed to be without sin in my post?

Notself must NOT have read any of it.

I am not saying Christians do not sin, nor am I claiming individuals have not murdered many thousands of people.

I am asking if Hitler was right in what he did, in murdering 6 million Jews?

If Hitler was right in doing so, give your reason for believing that. If Hitler was wrong in doing so, what is your reasoning for that?

I know for myself that Hitler was wrong and all others who murder anyone are morally wrong, but we are not talking about me here, we are talking about Athiests.

And of course A, who is not really an athiest, but an agnostic, will most likely not reply, or dance around the topic.

 

[notself]

You premise is that atheists are pro killing because they do not believe in God and only belief in God stops one from killing. This is what you said.

We don’t have value because another human being loves us. We don¹t have value because we have some arbitrary level of “quality of life.” We have value, because God loves us. Any other line of reasoning leaves an opening for someone, somewhere, at some point in time, to declare somebody else as having no value…

I pointed out that Christians have routinely wiped out populations of people because they were judged to have no value. It is clear from my post that the real causes of this type of crime is not the belief or lack of belief in God but rather greed, and hatred. Your premise is refuted.

 

[Joyousguard]

You premise is that atheists are pro killing because they do not believe in God and only belief in God stops one from killing. This is what you said.

I pointed out that Christians have routinely wiped out populations of people because they were judged to have no value. It is clear from my post that the real causes of this type of crime is not the belief or lack of belief in God but rather greed, and hatred. Your premise is refuted.

If I can respond to your theory here. What percentage of the world’s population believes in a higher power?

As of 2000, approximately 53% of the world’s population identifies with one of the three Abrahamic religions (33% Christian, 20% Islam, <1% Judaism), 6% with Buddhism, 13% with Hinduism, 6% with traditional Chinese religion, 7% with various other religions, and less than 15% as non-religious. Most of these religious beliefs involve a god or gods.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

Just to clarify, that is approximately 85% of the world’s population most likely believes in a God. This might be a bit difficult to prove but is most likely accurate to a degree.

First and foremost, the larger the population the more likely the probablity it is for certain circumstances to be found within those individuals. Large population most likely more crimes (not neccesarily the crime rate though). By shear number they will commit more murders, rapes, assualts and even genocides.

However, ther is a difference bewteen claiming to be something and actually practicing what you preach. A christain who commits genocide is a wolf in sheeps clothes and this should be considerd.

Mor eimportantly, how many Aethists have gained enough power in the world in order to get to the point where they could even committ such atrocities? I’m not sure Hitler really believed in a God. Did Stalin believe in a God? Professed aitheists have never gotten to such a level of power simply by the fact that they are atheists. Instead they try to cause problems on the local level and state levels because no oe will vote them into office or support them if they are professed atheists.

Whether so professed atheists like it or not, their moral values to a large extent are derived from genrations and generatiion sof religious beliefs. Atheists, often times with the rest of the God believeing world, go from point A to point C but with an illogical and irrational attempt at explaining point B (how they came to believ what they believe and how it is supported). Nature only gets you so far.

If the atheists ever get in power welcome to a world of “survival of the fittest” and human beings on worth their weight of the part they play in society. Guess we’ll never be able to see what atrocities atheists would be capable of when the really are never let in power in the first place.

 

[notself]

Hitler was born and raised a Catholic, never repudiated the Catholic faith, and said the following:

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

• Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.

• Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5

Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord’s grace smiled on His ungrateful children.

• Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.

• Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.

• Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

It doesn’t dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions.

• Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2

 

[justinthemartyr]

hitler did not have to repudiate his faith, his actions excommunicated him the moment he sinned mortally.

 

[Benedictus]

hitler did not have to repudiate his faith, his actions excommunicated him the moment he sinned mortally.

Try again. Last time I checked, canon law didn’t provide for the automatic excommunication of everyone who commits a mortal sin.

 

[notself]

From the quotes it appears that Hitler believed his actions were correct and even “Christian.” He was deluded, filled with ego and hate, but it appears that he commited a material sin vs a formal sin.

I found this on New Advent.

An action which, as a matter of fact, is contrary to the Divine law but is not known to be such by the agent constitutes a material sin; whereas formal sin is committed when the agent freely transgresses the law as shown him by his conscience, whether such law really exists or is only thought to exist by him who acts.

 

[ralphinal]

Not that it matters, but Hitler advocated a return to the old Germanic/Norse pantheon. He also tried to prove that Jesus wasn’t Jewish.

 

[notself]

Not that it matters, but Hitler advocated a return to the old Germanic/Norse pantheon. He also tried to prove that Jesus wasn’t Jewish.

Sources, please.

 

[Kaninchen]

Instead they try to cause problems on the local level and state levels because no oe will vote them into office or support them if they are professed atheists.

That sentence should end “. . . in the United States.”

Being an atheist (or agnostic) doesn’t seem to be a problem in elections in Western (or Northern) Europe, for example.

 

[ralphinal]

I saw several shows on it on the History Channel, but I can’t put a t.v. show on here. I can’t check it now, but History.com might have the info as well.

Here are some links from a google search about it.
shoaheducation.com/thor.html

hubpages.com/hub/norse_mythology

maxwell.syr.edu/maxpages/classes/His311/Lecture%20Three/NorseSagas.htm

True, Hitler was not a pantheist. He was raised a Christian (Catholic I think). I doubt at the end of his life he was anything but a lunatic. He probably began to believe his own propaganda

 

[notself]

I saw several shows on it on the History Channel, but I can’t put a t.v. show on here. I can’t check it now, but History.com might have the info as well.

Here are some links from a google search about it.
shoaheducation.com/thor.html

hubpages.com/hub/norse_mythology

maxwell.syr.edu/maxpages/classes/His311/Lecture%20Three/NorseSagas.htm

True, Hitler was not a pantheist. He was raised a Christian (Catholic I think). I doubt at the end of his life he was anything but a lunatic. He probably began to believe his own propaganda

Although he was raised Catholic and professed belief throughout his writings and speeches, He or someone in the Third Reich new the power of symbolism on the human mind.

The Nazis took the word Aryan from India where it means Noble One. They took the swastika from the Indo Tibetan culture, although they reversed it.

They used symbolism from ancient Rome; metal standards topped with eagles, and as you point out legends from the dawn of Europe.

I imagine you a right that he did come to believe his own propganda.

Thanks for the links. They were very interesting.

 

[justinthemartyr]

it is not possible for hitler to have been a catholic in good standing, else the pope at the time would not have helped jews to escape his grip.

anyhoot, that is not what this post is about.

The fact that 6 million plus jews and pols and catholic also were killed as a result of this mans actions is just that, a fact.

the question is, was it right for hitler to do these things, and if not, why?