hey ATHIESTS, was Hitler right?

[AllSaints1631]

Was Hitler Right? Or: Why Atheists Have No Rights); Part 1
by: John Martignoni
Why do we, as human beings, have value?

Why do we, as human beings, have value? Or, do we have value? All of you have heard about the mass extermination of the Jews that the Nazis carried out in the 30’s and 40’s that we now refer to as the Holocaust. Would you believe me, then, if I said that not a single human being died in the concentration camps? Not one single human being died in the concentration camps!
How can I say that? I can say that because by German law that existed at the time, Jews were legally considered “not fully human.” They were classified as a “sub-human” species. Legally speaking, they were “non-persons.” One group of people passed laws that said another group of people were not really human beings. So, I say again, no human beings died in the concentration camps. Am I right or am I wrong?

I can just see some of you shaking your heads to tell me that I’m wrong. So, okay, let’s say they were human beings. So what? Why should we care? What value are they to us? Again, the question I am trying to get at here is, how is it that our lives have value? How do we determine whether or not any given human life has value?

Do we have value only if we can be productive, if we have a job, or if we serve some useful purpose? Do we have value only if someone else thinks we have value? Do we have value only if we have an IQ of 100 or higher? Do we have value only if someone else loves us? Do we have value only if our “quality of life” meets some arbitrary standard set by others?

Well, I maintain, and I think most of you will agree with me, that we have value simply because we are alive…that human life has inherent value. In other words, simply because it is human life, it has value. But, what is my basis for saying that? It is this: we have value as human beings because God gives us value…He gives us value by His love for us.

We don’t have value because we are productive. We don’t have value because we are useful. We don’t have value because someone else thinks we have value. We don’t have value because we have an IQ of 100 or higher. We don’t have value because another human being loves us. We don¹t have value because we have some arbitrary level of “quality of life.” We have value, because God loves us. Any other line of reasoning leaves an opening for someone, somewhere, at some point in time, to declare somebody else as having no value…which is exactly what happened to the Jews in Europe 70 years ago.

This is why people who do not believe in God cannot offer any objective reason for saying that they themselves have value as human beings. Without God, everything becomes subjective…merely one person’s opinion versus another person’s opinion…and the strongest person’s opinon prevails. Without God, might, in essence, makes right. I’ve talked to atheists before and I’ve asked them if what Hitler did to the Jews was wrong. And they answered that of course it was! Then I asked them, why? Why was it wrong for Hitler to kill six million Jews? Essentially, all they could answer me with was, “Well, it just was.”

All they had to back their viewpoint was their own subjective opinion. They could not give me one objective reason, for why the Holocaust was wrong. And I have asked that question of some folks who have described themselves as “liberals.” What answer did I get? None. Even though I’ve asked the question several times, I have never had a self-described “liberal” even attempt to provide me with an answer. I believe they recognize that if they give me an answer to my question, it can and will be used against them to show that they are moral hypocrites in their support of abortion and stem cell research and euthanasia and so on.

Without God, you can’t make the case that the Holocaust was wrong. In fact, without God, you can’t make the case that any killing is wrong. Without God, you can’t make the case that the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were wrong. After all, without God, we are just animals, and no one says that one animal killing another animal is morally wrong.

Hitler was wrong if, and only if, God exists. If God does not exist, then might makes right and Hitler was the mightiest in Germany at the time, so he had every right to do what he did. This causes problems for any self-proclaimed atheists (and those who side with them) who wish to remove God from everything.

read the rest here phatmass.com/phorum/lofiversion/index.php/t55131.html

I don’t know about Athiests but I would say that Pope Pius XII thougt he was right.

 

[notself]

it is not possible for hitler to have been a catholic in good standing, else the pope at the time would not have helped jews to escape his grip.

anyhoot, that is not what this post is about.

The fact that 6 million plus jews and pols and catholic also were killed as a result of this mans actions is just that, a fact.

the question is, was it right for hitler to do these things, and if not, why?

Actually it was closer to 11,000,000 when one counts Jews and all the other people who Hitler objected to such as the Gypsies.

Of course it is wrong to kill, whether killing is one person or many. Why is it wrong? Because all living things cling to life and fear death. Since one wishes to live, it is wrong to deprive another for life. Since one fears death it is wrong to kill another. One should see that what one wants for oneself is what others want as well.

All the religions of the world and all the Gods in the heavens will not stop someone from killing who does not understand these simple facts.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I don’t know about Athiests but I would say that Pope Pius XII thougt he was right.

Where do you get that idea?

 

[AllSaints1631]

Where do you get that idea?

Of all the pictures I’ve seen with Hitler and the Pope Pius XII. The Pope made it a tradition to celebrate Hitler’s birthday every year. April 20.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Of all the pictures I’ve seen with Hitler and the Pope Pius XII. The Pope made it a tradition to celebrate Hitler’s birthday every year. April 20.

What? Never heard that before…

 

[justinthemartyr]

thats quite amusing.

if this is true, which I doubt it is, it was to pacify the man (hitler)and keep him at bay, because the pope helped to save hundreds of thousands of jews behind the scenes and lived to tell about it. amazing. Have you read the writings of the jewish rabbi’s of the time or those following them in later years? it is the opposite report as to what you are purporting.

 

[Kaninchen]

Have you read the writings of the jewish rabbi’s of the time or those following them in later years? it is the opposite report as to what you are purporting.

Really? I’d always thought that the situation was more than a little complex but, hey, I’m just a European Jewess, what would I know?

 

[ralphinal]

Actually it was closer to 11,000,000 when one counts Jews and all the other people who Hitler objected to such as the Gypsies.

Of course it is wrong to kill, whether killing is one person or many. Why is it wrong? Because all living things cling to life and fear death. Since one wishes to live, it is wrong to deprive another for life. Since one fears death it is wrong to kill another. One should see that what one wants for oneself is what others want as well.

All the religions of the world and all the Gods in the heavens will not stop someone from killing who does not understand these simple facts.

Trying to recapture the thread? If your supposition is correct, that it is wrong to kill because people want to live, then is it acceptable to kill someone who is suicidal? Is there no reason, other than legal, that I should not help kill someone who wants to end their own life?

 

[Cathryn]

The historical evidence is clear that PPXII was not silent.

From The Truth About Pope Pius XII

by Sister Margherita Marchione. Ph.D.

Albert Einstein, disenchanted by the silence of universities and editors of newspapers, stated in Time magazine (December 23, 1940): “Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. …The Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom.”

The Jewish Community publicly acknowledged the wisdom of Pope Pius XII’s diplomacy. In September 1945, Dr. Joseph Nathan—who represented the Hebrew Commission—stated “Above all, we acknowledge the Supreme Pontiff and the religious men and women who, executing the directives of the Holy Father, recognized the persecuted as their brothers and, with great abnegation, hastened to help them, disregarding the terrible dangers to which they were exposed.”

In 1958, at the death of Pope Pius XII, Golda Meir sent an eloquent message: “We share in the grief of humanity. …When fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the Pope was raised for its victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out about great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.”

The New York Times editorial (December 25, 1942) was specific: “The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas…He is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all.”

catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm

 

[notself]

Trying to recapture the thread? If your supposition is correct, that it is wrong to kill because people want to live, then is it acceptable to kill someone who is suicidal? Is there no reason, other than legal, that I should not help kill someone who wants to end their own life?

Someone who is suicidal is mentally ill or depressed and should be given help. Surely, you must realize this.

 

[ralphinal]

Someone who is suicidal is mentally ill or depressed and should be given help. Surely, you must realize this.

Undergrad in Psychology, and even without it I do. I am saying that if you feel that people should be allowed to live because they want to live, then you have to accept that it is acceptable to kill those who want to die. Would a better example be terminally ill or the aged who are ready to go?

I disagree that atheists have no reason to respect human life. I just don’t think that because people want to live or are afraid to die is why you let them live is the strongest position.

 

[Cathryn]

Trying to recapture the thread? If your supposition is correct, that it is wrong to kill because people want to live, then is it acceptable to kill someone who is suicidal? Is there no reason, other than legal, that I should not help kill someone who wants to end their own life?

If we were all just intelligent animals then there is no reason to not put someone down (as a beloved pet) who is not enjoying a “good quality of life” in our estimation. Of course I don’t believe humans are animals.

 

[justinthemartyr]

again, I have yet to see anyone really reply to the question at hand. Is killing okay, and if not, then why is it not?

isn’t it the survival of the fittest if there is no God?

are we not the same as any other creature if there is no God to have given us dignity, an eternal soul and a conscience?

 

[Jordan_Francis]

This is a very interesting question…

I have no doubts that most atheists are good or even exceptionally moral people (by humanist standards). I just often doubt that their morality actually flows from their atheism. Do they even claim that it does? I don’t know. I think the Judeo-Christian tradition in particular, but the religious sense in general, sufficiently re-inforced the basic morality that we today acknowledge.

Richard Dawkins seems to think the morality as we know it is all in the genes. We act good because they re-inforce our survival and perpetuate our species. A certain degree of altruism is beneficial for the genes.

I think there are real problems when a Darwinian or “natural-selection” theory is used to explain our moral sense. As soon as we recognize that they arose because we evolved in a certain way, what moral authority is there to hold us to it?

I’m interested in seeing more relpies.

 

[notself]

Undergrad in Psychology, and even without it I do. I am saying that if you feel that people should be allowed to live because they want to live, then you have to accept that it is acceptable to kill those who want to die. Would a better example be terminally ill or the aged who are ready to go?

I disagree that atheists have no reason to respect human life. I just don’t think that because people want to live or are afraid to die is why you let them live is the strongest position.

I think that if you spent some time contemplating my statement you would find that it is not about living or dying but about empathy and compassion. The statement is a paraphrase of a teaching by the Buddha on sila, moral virtue.

Because all living things cling to life and fear death. Since one wishes to live, it is wrong to deprive another of life. Since one fears death it is wrong to kill another. One should see that what one wants for oneself is what others want as well.

Ultimately whether someone wants to live or die is their affair. But I would not assist someone who is suicidal to kill themselves. I would make every effort to assist them to live. I take this position out of compassion and empathy. I know what it is to want to die. I know that these feelings are due to depression or mental illness or mental and physical exhaustion. I know that these feelings are temporary and can change.

After all, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

 

[justinthemartyr]

it is not merely that things want to live, because if that were so, then we would not kill animals or plants or anything else living including bacteria or cancer.

We are speaking of human beings and the slaughter by hitler of more than 6 million jews murdered systematically and directly because they were deemed as being of less value.

Is it wrong to kill other humans, and if so, why? be specific please.

 

[notself]

it is not merely that things want to live, because if that were so, then we would not kill animals or plants or anything else living including bacteria or cancer.

We are speaking of human beings and the slaughter by hitler of more than 6 million jews murdered systematically and directly because they were deemed as being of less value.

Is it wrong to kill other humans, and if so, why? be specific please.

I should have said sentient beings instead of things. Rocks are things and I don’t believe rocks have an opinion on life and death.

 

[ralphinal]

I should have said sentient beings instead of things. Rocks are things and I don’t believe rocks have an opinion on life and death.

Sorry, too late. No more digging, plowing, or spliting rocks.

Anyway, I hold that not everyone wants to live or fears death. I do agree with the supposition, almost a live and let live approach. It just seems to have a hole.

 

[notself]

Sorry, too late. No more digging, plowing, or spliting rocks.



Anyway, I hold that not everyone wants to live or fears death. I do agree with the supposition, almost a live and let live approach. It just seems to have a hole.

I believe that people can come to accept death and not fear it. But the vast majority of people and all animals respond to eminent death with fear. It is a mechanism for survival. In the case of humans, depression, illness and exhaustion can remove the fear. In the case of terminally ill people, acceptance of death can remove fear.

But once again, my point is about empathy and the golden rule in response to the question of this thread.

Why was it wrong for Hitler to kill six million Jews?..
If God does not exist, then might makes right and Hitler was the mightiest in Germany at the time, so he had every right to do what he did.

I believe that the Golden Rule, based on empathy and compassion, can exist separately from religious belief.

 

[awfulthings9]

Of all the pictures I’ve seen with Hitler and the Pope Pius XII. The Pope made it a tradition to celebrate Hitler’s birthday every year. April 20.

So if a president of a country sits down with the president of an enemy country to negotiate a truce on nuclear weapons, and someone snaps a picture, this means the two are in agreement?

And where, exactly, is the documentation that the Pope made it a tradition to celebrate Hitler’s birthday every year? I hope you’ll indicate it is in the Cornwell book, Hitler’s Pope, so I can direct you to Cornwell’s own quotes retracting much of his thesis, destroying the book’s credibility.

Talk about a drive-by mud-slinging job.