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xmydreamsfadex
Guest
if hitler was a catholic, i think it was a bad idea to send his killing squads into towns to kill the priests.
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Tim_Kirchoff
Guest
But what motivation is there to follow the Golden Rule, if it is separate from religion?
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notself
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Tim_Kirchoff
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But what is happiness, then? Can it be derived from physical pleasure? Intellectual fulfillment?
I want to hear it from you, not from Epicurus.
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notself
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My happiness comes from how I act; the response from others and my review of my actions. Of course, thought proceeds action so my thoughts must be appropriate.
If I act with kindness and compassion, have not harmed another or have helped another, I have the following results. I have the positive response from the person I have treated well. I can enjoy having a reputation for kindness and trustworthiness. I know that I can look back on my actions without regret.
If I behave with harshness or lack of empathy, I have a negative response from people. I develop a reputation of being unkind, difficult, and untrustworthy. I know that I can look back on my actions with regret.
What is your definition of happiness and how would you describe it in your own words?
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Tim_Kirchoff
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Happiness is understanding your purpose in living. You cannot be content until you comprehend your origin and your goal. This is the ultimate happiness.
However, don’t many people use pleasure as a substitute for happiness, or not know the difference? That is what I am asking you. If there is no God, and no universal justice, what is a person’s motivation for living a moral lifestyle?
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notself
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Many people who believe in God never the less use pleasure as a substitute for happiness. People who are sincerely religious commit horrible crimes. Their religion is not enough. Threat of damnation, promise of heaven is not enough. You know that as well as I.
Perhaps you will answere my question. What makes you happy and why?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Originally because monkeys with the gene for ‘socially cohesive behavior’ had an evolutionary advantage over monkeys who did not?
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Tim_Kirchoff
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The closest I have come to happiness lately is at Mass, right after the Eucharist. A warm feeling of utter joy and wonder at God’s saving power.
My point is, will a person rob a bank if they know they will be caught? Will someone murder if they know they cannot escape judgement for their crime? Without an immortal soul and a judge for the soul, then there is no justice. No motivation to do good. There is only selfishness.
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notself
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I think that the genetic source of such behavior would certainly be reasonable and would have been part of primate development. Social behavior is seen in other species as well.
I used to be a wildlife rehabilitator and was fairly expert at finches. This finch got caught on one of those yellow paper insect traps that are covered with sticky stuff. The home owner got upset with the bird’s struggles and in his efforts to free her, tore her off the trap accidentally removing her tail feathers. She was covered with the sticky stuff and there was a bit of blood from the trauma of pulling the feathers out. He brought her to the Wildlife Center and I ended up with her.
After washing her and keeping her over night, I took her back to the gentleman’s house to be released. He had mentioned there were two other birds flying around when he was freeing her so I knew she had a family.
I released her at noon. Birds tend to take naps in the afternoon and I thought she would fly to a tree and settle down until her family found her. The back yard was completely quite and no birds were in sight as I expected. When I released her she flew straight up and in an instant was greeted by a large flock of finches who flew around her several times. She was easy to spot because of the missing tail.
After a few moments of flight, the flock settled back in the trees and the injured finch sat on a telephone line with her mate and full grown offspring. They perched together for about ten minutes appearing to just enjoy each other’s company before they flew to the tree. This was so obviously a case of affection between the flock and the bird and between the flock and her family, that one must assume that social behavior has benefit beyond survival.
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notself
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Peolpe rob banks with reasonable expectation of being caught. Being caught the first time does not stop repeat offenders. Christians have murdered throughout history knowing it is a mortal sin, certain to damn them to hell.
There is there is altuism even among non believers. To say that people who are atheists are not motivated to do good is not true. It only means that they are motivated differently than you are.
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Valke2
Guest
God is not necessary for justice. A reasonable mind can reach the conclusion that if this is the only life we have, then it becomes infinitely precious and that it is infinitely precious to others and must be respected.
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justinthemartyr
Guest
so we should be holding court for those who kill bugs, animals and bacteria?
that would be equal justice for living things right?
this is a rediculous thought, right?
because humans have reason that animals, plants and other living things do not. where did they get that much heightened reasoning ability and justice?
that would be equal justice for living things right?
this is a rediculous thought, right?
because humans have reason that animals, plants and other living things do not. where did they get that much heightened reasoning ability and justice?
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notself
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The original post was about Hitler and human beings. We have been talking about crime and justice in relation to human beings.
If you wish to talk about bugs perhaps another thread is in order.
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Kaninchen
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Human beings are such artificial creatures (in the sense of artifacts - complex languages, societies, tools, modifying, environments etc) that it often blinds us to the obvious about evolution, hard-wiring and behavior.
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ralphinal
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I have said on another thread that I think Christians cause a problem when they assume that someone is agnostic or athiest because they want to live in a way that God disagrees with. To that end, I think that there are several ways that they can answer this question. Obviously, human life has meaning, if to no one else than that person and their family. A better question is does human life have more meaning than any other type of life?
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justinthemartyr
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It must have more meaning, else the animals would be worshiping a God of their understanding. Yet we see the opposite, they live on instincts alone and cannot deviate from them.
We can make a choice to travel around the entire world and murder someone in a premeditated manner, yet an animal cannot. No other species of living creature on this earth can.
Therefore we see that humans are different from their foundation and have something very different within them that causes them to worship God, things, etc…
This is why we see no needed justice in any other life on this planet, only humans have a justice system and are capable of having one.
Why is it that killing another human being is not okay, if there is no God? If there is no God to have given us these senses of right and wrong ( morality )and justice?
Nature itself speaks of laws which are put into place that when contradicted, they do not work, they are absolutes.
For someone not believeing in absolutes, this is a problem.
We can make a choice to travel around the entire world and murder someone in a premeditated manner, yet an animal cannot. No other species of living creature on this earth can.
Therefore we see that humans are different from their foundation and have something very different within them that causes them to worship God, things, etc…
This is why we see no needed justice in any other life on this planet, only humans have a justice system and are capable of having one.
Why is it that killing another human being is not okay, if there is no God? If there is no God to have given us these senses of right and wrong ( morality )and justice?
Nature itself speaks of laws which are put into place that when contradicted, they do not work, they are absolutes.
For someone not believeing in absolutes, this is a problem.
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Arnobius
Guest
Before you go claim that Hitler’s actions were “Catholic” in nature, may I invite you to read what the Church thought about the so-called religion the Nazi’s professed?
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html
Mit Brennender Sorge was the Church condemnation of Nazism.
An excerpt:
8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.
It has often been claimed that Pius XII was pro-Nazi, but this is a claim long refuted. The standard works such as Gunther Levy and Rolf Hochhuth’s play, “The Deputy” of the 1960s not to mention the modern work John Cornwell’s “Hitler’s Pope” have been often refuted.
Consider The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis published in 2005, author Rabbi David G. Dalin and Hitler, the War, and the Pope by Mississippi Law Professor Ronald Rychlak which are solid refutations of the claims repeated against Pius XII
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notself
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I never said that Hitler’s actions were Catholic in nature. You are putting words in my mouth and you know it.
I will not respond further to your post.
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Arnobius
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I quoted what you said. You were the one bringing up the red herring of Hitler being Catholic and citing his quotes as if they were linked.
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