Hi from Toronto

[juancross]

A very warm welcome Superstar andSkattas.

Only this do i ask of your great Kindness]

that you convert me totally to you and allow no obstacle to hinder me as i make my way to you.
St Augustine
May God keep blessing you

 

[Tim_in_MI]

Superstar905:

Hey Tim, thanks for the welcome. I was just at my cousin’s cottage in Fort Erie, right near where you grew up!!!

You must love us crazy canucks eh!!!

Cool. We have several friends in the Toronto area where we lived for a while. We still stay in touch. There’s a special place in my heart for you folks!

 

[RyanL]

Hi, skattas! It’s a pleasure to have you here, and I hope you’ll hang around for a bit. Don’t forget the main site (www.catholic.com)), and the excellent essays they have there.

Since I haven’t seen a new thread from you yet, I thought I might share some insights I have gained in the faith - specifically regarding the communion of saints. Hopefully this will get you thinking about a question to start the new thread with…

Let’s say you get engaged. You love your fiance more and more every day, and you simply can’t get enough of him. Then, your fiance says, “I’d like to introduce you to my family.” Imagine, if you will, responding, “No thanks. I just want to focus on loving you. I don’t really care about your parents, brothers, sisters, or cousins. They kinda’ get in the way of my loving you. I don’t really want anything to do with them; I just want to love you and you alone.” Wouldn’t you be offended?

Wouldn’t anyone want their fiance to meet, love, and honor their family? If I become best friends with my wife’s brother, would she be offended? Would she think that I’m somehow taking away from the love I give her? Of course not.

You see, the Catholic way of thinking about eachother and our relationship with God is a family way of thinking. We love allof our brothers and sisters, we honor those who have died for God, we cherish people who have spent their lives serving our Savior and bearing witness to His glory. We honor most our brothers and sisters who have placed our family above all things, and have obeyed the Father in faith and love. And, quite frankly, some members of our family are better role-models than others. These are the Saints. We, as Catholics, believe that God sees us as His family as well. When children play together and love eachother, the Father is not offended - rather, He is glad that the family is growing strong. To say that we simply don’t want to acknowledge our brothers and sisters in heaven is like saying, “I don’t want to play (read: pray) with my brother. I don’t really even want him as a brother. I don’t care how you feel about him; I refuse to have anything to do with him, because I’m your son and he might get in the way. I just want my you to be my daddy, and that’s all.” Can you see how this doesn’t quite jibe with a family mentality?

But they’re dead, you say. Nope. They’re alive - more alive than you or me, as they are alive in Christ and look on Him face to face! As believers, we’re part of the Body of Christ. When we die, we aren’t somehow separated from the Body of Christ - we remain in Him, and become even more essential to the Body. If we are all one Body, how could you possibly say to any part of the Body, “I don’t need you.”

Perhaps these ideas might help illustrate what we’re really thinking about with the Communion of Saints…but this is probably more appropriate for another thread.

Peace, and welcome! I hope I don’t come off as sanctimonious, as I am quite in need of a Savior…
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

skattas:

… what benefit is there in believing that Mary or any of the saints could have more of an impact than your own personal prayers, or of those still alive?

This is a good question. I believe it can best be answered with Scripture, specifically James 5:16b “…The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” (KJV)

Now, I don’t know about you, but somedays I’m far less righteous than others. Somedays I’m downright mired in sin. On those days, I find it comforting that I can ask the Blessed Mother, who knew no sin and is perfected in righteousness in Christ Jesus, to pray for me. James 5:16 lets me know that while my prayers may not have much effect, hers (and others’) availeth much.

I understand why you’re having problems with this, however, as your theology holds that no one can be any more righteous than anyone else (“imputed righteousness” or “covered by Christ”). Hopefully (among others) James 5:16b shows that some humans are, indeed, more righteous than others.

Good luck, and may the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be always with you,
RyanL

 

[trailblazer]

Dear and blessed sister-in-Christ, Skattas,

Below you asked a question regarding prayer to Mary and the saints. Why? Well, one way to look at it is asking a friend of our to pray for us when we have a particular need (perhaps this is an uncommon custom for you, I do not know). When I am in need, I frequently ask prayers from my friends, particularly those who have strong prayer lives and seem sincere in their love for Christ. Christ destroyed death. Mary and the saints live on in a reality that is real although unseen and somewhat beyong comprehension. In many ways, being in Heaven and in Spirit they are almost able to be more present to us now than in life. So, if I ask a friend who is alive for prayers and support, why not ask friends who are also alive but unseen for such support, and if my friends prayers here have power, how much more is that from the saints. Thus, I frequently turn to the saints for their prayers. Some I can relate to as I do some friends, because their is a certain affinity brought about from their lives affecting mine. Sometimes, its nice to go to Mary and know that I have a mother given me by Jesus from the cross whom I can talk to and be comforted by…sometimes even admonished by.

At the same time asking a friend for prayer does not deminish my relationship with Christ. Jesus is God and I approach him directly and talk with him frequently as his disciple. I love him. However, in turning to friends, the community of believers, I believe this pleases Jesus who said that where 2 or 3 are gathered he is there. Reverance of the saints, is NOT the same as worship – worship of the saints would be heresy. Mary and the saints were completely devoted to Christ, their mission in live pointed others to Christ…so is their activity for us today.

I hope you found this helpful.

Your brother in Christ,
Bob

‘Why would I talk to the bouncer when I know the owner of the club?’. God is a loving Father. All I know is that a loving father would welcome his child to come speak to him directly. Jesus does not need extra persuasion from his mother to do something for his child. Mary will not tell him anything the all-knowing Father wouldn’t already know. He is the source of all knowledge, generosity, empathy, and kindness. No one can add to what the Lord knows and sees. God’s decisions are final and just…because of his infinite wisdom and love. In this respect, what benefit is there in believing that Mary or any of the saints could have more of an impact than your own personal prayers, or of those still alive?

 

[Franz]

The division between Protestant (some, not all denominations) and Catholics over Mary is quite sad really. Jesus must be so upset over the treatment of his Mother. As Catholics, it’s important though that we realize that many non-Catholics have been raised with a certain theology that becomes ingrained and very difficult to eliminate. I know that for myself, Mary was a big problem initially, but now have a closer relationship to Jesus as a result of my acceptance of Marian Dogma. God Bless you Skattas for asking questions, that’s a start.

 

[piety101]

A warm welcome to both you and your girlfriend. But is your girlfriend trying to convert you at the same time you are trying to convert her?

 

[Superstar905]

piety101:

A warm welcome to both you and your girlfriend. But is your girlfriend trying to convert you at the same time you are trying to convert her?

Hiiii, I don’t think it’s relevant about who’s converting who, thats not my place or job, I’ll leave that to the Holy Spirit.

The purpose of this is to provide an avenue where she can ask the questions she has about the faith, and hopefully in Charity the people here can clear up those misconceptions she may hold about what the faith teaches. Thats all.

Thanks for the welcome!!!

 

[skattas]

RyanL:

This is a good question. I believe it can best be answered with Scripture, specifically James 5:16b “…The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” (KJV)

Now, I don’t know about you, but somedays I’m far less righteous than others. Somedays I’m downright mired in sin. On those days, I find it comforting that I can ask the Blessed Mother, who knew no sin and is perfected in righteousness in Christ Jesus, to pray for me. James 5:16 lets me know that while my prayers may not have much effect, hers (and others’) availeth much.

I understand why you’re having problems with this, however, as your theology holds that no one can be any more righteous than anyone else (“imputed righteousness” or “covered by Christ”). Hopefully (among others) James 5:16b shows that some humans are, indeed, more righteous than others.

Good luck, and may the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be always with you,
RyanL

UhOh…that’s the problem…I strongly believe that the only person who “knew no sin” was and is Jesus. By giving her that characteristic too, you are placing her at a level of equality with Jesus (or so it plainly seems). Perfection is a unique characteristic of Jesus…no other. How else would it be taught that :“There is no other name under the sun…” or “I am the way the Truth and the Life, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME” It’s pretty clear, at least to me, but now we’re just getting into another problem of interpretation. Well, listen, I posted a new thread like you all have suggested. Thank you for all the warm welcomes, and swift replies. I will deal with this in more depth as we go in the new thread. See you all there…I hope!

 

[DeFide]

skattas:

UhOh…that’s the problem…I strongly believe that the only person who “knew no sin” was and is Jesus. By giving her that characteristic too, you are placing her at a level of equality with Jesus (or so it plainly seems). Perfection is a unique characteristic of Jesus…no other. How else would it be taught that :“There is no other name under the sun…” or “I am the way the Truth and the Life, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME” It’s pretty clear, at least to me, but now we’re just getting into another problem of interpretation. Well, listen, I posted a new thread like you all have suggested. Thank you for all the warm welcomes, and swift replies. I will deal with this in more depth as we go in the new thread. See you all there…I hope!

Hi Skattas,

You have a small misconception that should be easy to clear up. Sinlessness does not imply perfection in a divine sense.

Examples:

Adam & Eve had no sin whatsoever for a period of time, but they were not perfect (in a divine sense) during that time.

Babies don’t commit actual sins, but neither are they perfect in a divine sense. If they die before the age of reason, they have no actual sin for their entire lives.

So far so good?

Catholics do not think that Mary is perfect in a divine sense. We know she is a creature, not the infinite perfect Creator. We know that she is not all-knowing or all-powerful. What Mary has, she possesses by virtue of what God has given her. God crowns his achievements in Mary (and in us if we let Him).

 

[Catholic_Tom]

skattas:

UhOh…that’s the problem…I strongly believe that the only person who “knew no sin” was and is Jesus. By giving her that characteristic too, you are placing her at a level of equality with Jesus (or so it plainly seems). Perfection is a unique characteristic of Jesus…no other. How else would it be taught that :“There is no other name under the sun…” or “I am the way the Truth and the Life, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME” It’s pretty clear, at least to me, but now we’re just getting into another problem of interpretation. Well, listen, I posted a new thread like you all have suggested. Thank you for all the warm welcomes, and swift replies. I will deal with this in more depth as we go in the new thread. See you all there…I hope!

Reference to the below is : catholicoutlook.com/objmary1.php
“The Catholic Church claims that Mary was conceived without original sin (the so-called Immaculate Conception), and that she never committed any sin her whole life. But the Bible says that because of Adam death (Original Sin) came to all men (Rom. 5:12). Further, the Bible says that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23), and Mary herself called God, “my savior” (Luke 1:46-47), proving that she was a sinner like the rest of us.”

by Gary Hoge

This is a great question. Actually, it’s several great questions. How can the Catholic Church say that Mary never sinned, when Paul says that “all have sinned”? Well, it’s simple, really: In the Bible, “all” doesn’t always mean “all individuals.” Sometimes it means “some of all types.” For example, when Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself” (John 12:32, NAS), He did not mean that He would draw each and every man, woman, and child to Himself. He meant that He would draw some people “from every tribe and language and people and nation” (Rev. 5:9). In other words, it wasn’t just the Jews that would benefit, it was all people, all nations.

This is the sense in which Paul meant Romans 3:23. Paul spends the first two chapters of Romans demonstrating that the Jews and Gentiles are both equally guilty before God. In Romans 3:9, he writes, “We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.” Then he writes, “There is no difference [between Jews and Gentiles], for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:22-23). That is, all nations are under sin, the Jews included.

On an individual level, however, there can be exceptions without violating the meaning of this verse. Obviously, Jesus Himself is an exception. He did not sin. Neither do young children, who, because of their immaturity, are incapable of making moral choices, and thus, are incapable of committing actual sins. Therefore, Mary could also be an exception, if God chose to make her one. Of course, “could be” is a long way from “is,” but I’m only trying to demonstrate here that the doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness does not contradict the meaning of Romans 3:23 (that both Jews and Gentiles as a group, are sinners). Statements like “all have sinned,” while generally true, are not to be understood to mean that there can be no exceptions. For example, we know that as a general rule, “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23), but we also know that both Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), though they were sinners, never died.

Now, it’s certainly true that in the normal course of things, every baby is conceived in a state of Original Sin. Had God not intervened, this would also have been true of Mary. Likewise, it is also true that every person who lives long enough to be capable of moral decision-making will commit actual sins. Again, had God not intervened, this would also have been true of Mary. But the Catholic Church points out that there was nothing normal about the job Mary was given to do. Her role was different – and more important – than any other person’s in human history: to bear, give birth to, feed, clothe, protect, raise, and train the Son of God.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

con’t

Catholics simply believe that God gave Mary gifts that were appropriate to her role as Jesus’s mother. It was not intrinsically necessary that she be preserved from sin, but it made her a more fitting vessel to bear the Son of God. And by the way, her preservation from sin was a gift, based solely on the merits of her Son. She, being human, was as much in need of a savior as the rest of us. But her role in salvation history was more difficult and more important than any other person’s. (Who among us would dare to say that his own role in history was more important than bearing and raising the Son of God?) Therefore, by God’s grace, she was saved more perfectly, and more comprehensively, than the rest of us. In essence, we are pulled out of the pit of sin; she was prevented from falling into it in the first place. So it is entirely appropriate for Mary to call God her savior, for He saved her in a most spectacular way.

If we look back in history, we find that Christians have known about Mary’s sinless condition from the very beginning. There are hints of it as far back as the second century, when it was common to compare her to Eve, who was also undefiled. It is explicitly taught somewhat later:

You alone and your mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?1

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.2

Having excepted the holy virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins – for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin? – so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?3

It’s actually rather ironic that modern Protestants object to the Immaculate Conception and subsequent sinlessness of Mary, because, like the early Christians, Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, was a firm believer in it. He wrote,

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.4

 

[Catholic_Tom]

skattas:

How else would it be taught that :“There is no other name under the sun…” or “I am the way the Truth and the Life, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME” It’s pretty clear, at least to me, but now we’re just getting into another problem of interpretation.

Fortunately Catholics do not have the problem of interpretation. We are free to interpret the bible as we please but we are NOT free to make our own Theology out of our interpretations as it only leads to heresy as history has taught us all too well. Remember, the Bible is a Catholic collection of books, and scripture is a Catholics best friend.

I want to first off affirm your statements, that there is no other name under the sun, and that Jesus is truly the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one comes to the father except by Jesus. No Catholic would argue with you there. In fact, AMEN.

Catholics agree. It means that He alone, by His own power, earned all forgiveness and grace for our race.

I’m sure someone else could elaborate further on this. It would be a good idea to review the reponses you were given above. First though, I suggest praying for the Holy Spirit to open your heart. I’m not suggesting it isn’t, and in fact it seems as it is. However sometimes the natural reaction would be to find out how to combat a response. This is not keeping your heart open. Pray often and God will hear your prayers.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Catholic Tom:

…just a word of caution. Some members can be downright rude, some can be unloving, some can be hurtful.

Tom, what are you talking about? Nobody on this forum is ever rude, you idiot moron - where did you get such an dumb idea in your fool head?

Kidding, of course. Tom is a great guy and a valuable member of the community.

I’ve seen very little rudeness, at least in this forum. The folks here are polite, even when they disagree.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

DavidFilmer:

Tom, what are you talking about? Nobody on this forum is ever rude, you idiot moron - where did you get such an dumb idea in your fool head?

Kidding, of course. Tom is a great guy and a valuable member of the community.

I’ve seen very little rudeness, at least in this forum. The folks here are polite, even when they disagree.

lol, I have to admit, that made me laugh. Some people can be rude, but a lot of times it depends on what they are reacting too. For the most part, people on the Catholic Answers forums are great examples of what it means to be Christian. Unlike protestant forums where you get kicked off for no reason other than using scripture to make your point. Baptistboard.com wont even let me register because I am Catholic!