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But she’s not avoiding after two. That’s not your situation.

What you want is objective list of grave reason. The church doesn’t give one. That’s because its a holy, maturing thing to listen to ones spouse. Your wife may be peddling pat answers that you find invalid. But if my husband seemed to only want to change my mind, I’d stop talking.
 
That is a really good question. What is a good enough reason to prevent life? I am not sure I have a definitive answer. I honestly want my wife to be happy and healthy, but more than that I want her to get to Heaven.
So having an unhealthy wife would be okay with you? You would still want to try to conceive another child? Do you believe that your wife needs to have a set number of children to “get to Heaven?”
The idea that someone just “doesn’t want” more kids because they are a lot of work doesn’t strike me as a grave reason to avoid. What if a mother said that after one or two children?
You wife takes care of 7 child with little help from her husband. (He is always at work.)
I have obviously described this poorly in an attempt not to implicate my dear wife. I am just not sure that the answer to this issue is to defer to pregnancy avoidance. Ultimately, does God want us to decide when we are “done” with bringing new souls into the world?
I think you have described the situation perfectly, you just didn’t expect the answers you got.
 
I don’t know your wife, but wow, I have so much respect for her. If she says she’s done, than I think you need to respect that. It seems like you are trying to squeeze out as many kids as you can from her. Trust me, you would have a hard time finding a priest who thinks your wife is committing a grave sin for not wanting anymore.
 
Please don’t misunderstand! I definitely do see how hard she works and how dedicated she is to her vocation. She is a wonderful woman and mother and there is nothing that could change my view on that.

But, we do have a traditional marriage and always have. This is just…unsettling. I am open to life and she isn’t (at the moment.) That’s really the crux of the issue. I mean, I would really like to hire out part of MY job too, but the world is what it is and our agreement is what it is.

And I definitely can see how she wouldn’t be excited, at first, to “add to the load.” But I know that it is our calling as a married Catholic couple to be OPEN to life, so I don’t see how she can just deny that for personal reasons of not wanting to put in the effort. I know she’s sacrificed a lot, trust me, I do. But to not be willing to welcome another little soul? To put one’s own comfort ahead of our calling as a married couple?

I’m just trying to understand.
You seem very sincere but your wife’s mental and emotional health are not just a matter of not wanting to put in the effort.
 
Welcome! I’m also a newbie. I recently heard from a priest “It’s your job to help get your spouse to heaven”. Wow! That was news to me. I totally respect and admire your desire to help your wife get to heaven. I’m still trying to figure out the “how” on that one. But it is encouraging to hear from someone who has set this as a priority.

But, please consider your marriage vows…protect and cherish…in sickness and in health. Is your wife feeling protected and cherished now? 🤷 She may not be physically sick now. But, physical, mental and emotional exhaustion / stress can lead to serious illnesses. She sounds like she has held up her part of “the agreement” up to this time. Perhaps she deserves a break for a little while. Why would you want to push her beyond what she believes she can handle? I think I agree with the previous posters. Give her some time. Show her that you love and respect her and care how she feels.

Praying for you, your wife, and your 7 blessed boys.
 
I want to say something and it might come off sounding harsh if I don’t preface it.

So, let me just begin by saying you have so much to be proud of: a wife, 7 boys… being the sole breadwinner for all 9 of you. My, 70 hours a week? I don’t know if I would survive! You have clearly gone above and beyond for your family. I’m truly in awe of your dedication!

Now, the vasectomy, condoms, etc. are wrong according to Church teaching as they stifle pro-creation. If your wife is aware, she should not be recommending these things.

However, with love my friend, I want you to know how your posts have come off to a third party, namely, me. I think you are treading dangerously close to insulting the dignity of your wife and the sacrament of marriage by viewing her as a ‘baby factory,’ so to speak.

She has birthed 7 sons, she has cared for 7 sons and she is now 41. So yes, while vasectomy/condom/etc. are the wrong route to go down, I sincerely believe that you need to listen to your wife here.

You say she is healthy. According to the doctors, this may be true - but she’s the only one that can actually feel her own body. Respect that. By bearing and raising 7 children, she has at least earned the benefit of the doubt, has she not? So please, give her that benefit of the doubt - believe her at her word. If she says she’s feeling tired and worn out, she is feeling tired and worn out.
 
Patricia, my wife, wants to hire a housekeeper every other week so that she can relax more. I think that’s a bit extravagant and silly, but I might be willing to go for it if it means she could be open to the possibility of LIFE.
If, while trying to keep my sanity in the midst of caring for 7 children, I was exhausted and overwhelmed to the point of asking for outside help, and my husband thought it was extravagant and silly…yeah, that would do nothing to improve my self-confidence, and would make me feel that my husband couldn’t care less about my feelings and needs.

🤷
 
I honestly want my wife to be happy and healthy, but more than that I want her to get to Heaven.
If your concern truly is for your wife’s eternal repose then you should not be here seeking advice. We’re strangers on the Internet, armchair Catholic theologians at best, and none of us have the authority to speak for the Church or her teachings.

We can speak to our life experience with family size and growing families; we can give you Bible quotes and excepts from Canon law to mull over; we can gently try to change your thinking. But what you and your wife need in this circumstance is personalized pastoral guidance, and that we cannot provide.

The only place you can get the knowledge and guidance you seek is in your priest’s office. Make an appointment. Today. You wife also needs to be at this appointment, as I’m sure he and/or his secretary will tell you. The decision to grow or not grow a family is one that cannot be made unilaterally, and your priest has too much respect for both Catholic marriage and Church teachings to go it alone with you.

Now, regarding the hiring of housekeeper or cleaning service. Please keep in mind that your wife’s primary vocation is to parent your children; she’s charged with guiding them, teaching them, and being the model of what a Catholic wife and mother is. She’s teaching them manners, to read, pray, cooperate, and be responsible citizens in our society. She’s monitoring their physical and mental/emotional well-being. She’s keeping them clean and well-nourished. All these things are and must be her primary focus. Wiping down walls and scrubbing toilets should be a distant, distant second.

Just like a manager hires an intern or assistant to take care of the grunt work, keepers of the hearth and home hire cleaners so they can effectively focus on the vital work of raising up the future.

If you doubt my words on this, I would urge you to take a week off of your job to do you wife’s. And then report back to us on how it worked out for you.

Luna
 
I’m sure you mean well, but the fact that you think hiring a housekeeper every couple of weeks to help your exhausted (physically and emotionally) wife and mom of your 7 children tells me you don’t take her emotional and mental health into consideration much.
AMEN.

In all the rest of history, large families had extra hands - be they extended family or hired help - my mom homeschooled 4 of us and had mother’s helpers in our younger years to help out. If paying someone to deep clean 2X per week is doable, then, DO IT (Also, those boys need to be pitching in and helping around the house).
 
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Obviously I sound like a real jerk. Patricia always says I have a hard time expressing myself!

Is being tired really a valid reason to avoid welcoming another baby? My wife is healthy, slim, does not struggle with mental illness - and yes of course she’s tired with the 7 boys - but beyond that I really do not feel she is unwell or unstable.

In no way do I consider my lovely wife to be a “baby factory” - but we did agree to welcome as many children as God sees fit. In some ways I feel she is reneging on our vows, and telling God she knows best. I am concerned for her soul, because she obviously wants to be the decider as to how many children we have. Many women care for far more than 7 children (and let’s be honest, the three or four oldest are pretty much self-sufficient, so it’s not like she’s caring for 7 little ones.)

The housekeeper - well the way I see it, we have a 16-year-old son, and a 14 -year-old, and a 13-year-old and they are fit and able to help around the house. There is no reason they should not be helping their mother with the yard work and lawn mowing, taking out the garbage, fixing little things around the house, carrying in the groceries. They can put away their own laundry. The fact that she has not made them responsible for these things is beyond me. I think it would lighten her “load” so to speak, but she claims they are too busy with school, homework and extracurricular activities. I do not think the laundry has been put away for two weeks and I am now living out of the dryer.

Sorry to vent I just need a place where I can place all my burdens on the altar. Please pray for me, and for my wife. I love her so dearly and only want the best. This is just very hard for me to accept.

Thanks
Roland
 
Give Proverbs 31 a read. The Scripture describes a holy wife - and guess what? She has hired help. To accuse her of “hiring out her duties” really does not come across as loving. Her vocation is to marriage.

I think Retrouvaille might be a great thing for the two of you! (Along with a housekeeper 2X per month and date night at least that often).
 
The teens should also be learning to cook, doing dishes, vacuuming and learning to clean bathrooms! My son could cook full meals by age 12.
 
The housekeeper - well the way I see it, we have a 16-year-old son, and a 14 -year-old, and a 13-year-old and they are fit and able to help around the house. There is no reason they should not be helping their mother with the yard work and lawn mowing, taking out the garbage, fixing little things around the house, carrying in the groceries. They can put away their own laundry. The fact that she has not made them responsible for these things is beyond me.
This is time for dad to step in and explain that we all live in this house, mom is not the maid. From now on you boys are responsible for X, X, X and if these chores are not done, you will lose (insert priviledges like sports and driving and computer and cell phones and video games…).

Is there any chance that they have been trained to think that housekeeping is “wimmin’s work” and that as males they are exempt?
 
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Obviously I sound like a real jerk. Patricia always says I have a hard time expressing myself!

Is being tired really a valid reason to avoid welcoming another baby? My wife is healthy, slim, does not struggle with mental illness - and yes of course she’s tired with the 7 boys - but beyond that I really do not feel she is unwell or unstable.

Thanks
Roland
You are not a jerk, but I do think you need to slow down and actually listen to what your wife is telling you and all that her words imply. And yes being tired is a valid reason to avoid pregnancy (not commit sin) if it means that she will be too tired to care for the new baby or to care for the children you already have. You see what I am saying? The problem is not just that your wife is tired, it is all the consequences that come along with being tired. When I am tired, my parenting goes down hill, I am more impatient and yell and lose my temper with my children more often. I have not gotten 8 hours of unbroken sleep for almost 3 years, how long has it been since you wife has had even a week of unbroken sleep, that was at least 7 hrs?

And yes you have children old enough to help out with the house. And help they should . But want to bet that your wife has to nag them to do the chores, and supervise the effort, or she will just have to spend more time doing it over. So depending on what level of cleanliness you and your wife have of the house, outside help might be necessary. They can do a deep clean of the bathroom, and dust the cobwebs off the corners of the ceiling twice a month, while wife and kids run the vacuum a few times a week, wipe up the bathroom weekly, do daily chores like laundry, dishes, cooking, shopping, errand running, picking up, etc.
 
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Obviously I sound like a real jerk. Patricia always says I have a hard time expressing myself!

Is being tired really a valid reason to avoid welcoming another baby? My wife is healthy, slim, does not struggle with mental illness - and yes of course she’s tired with the 7 boys - but beyond that I really do not feel she is unwell or unstable.
There is tired and then there is exhausted. I am betting she is beyond tired.
In no way do I consider my lovely wife to be a “baby factory” - but we did agree to welcome as many children as God sees fit.
Could God be telling you, through your wife, that you need to slow down? That right now, having another child isn’t what God wants you to do?
In some ways I feel she is reneging on our vows, and telling God she knows best. I am concerned for her soul, because she obviously wants to be the decider as to how many children we have. Many women care for far more than 7 children (and let’s be honest, the three or four oldest are pretty much self-sufficient, so it’s not like she’s caring for 7 little ones.)
The housekeeper - well the way I see it, we have a 16-year-old son, and a 14 -year-old, and a 13-year-old and they are fit and able to help around the house. There is no reason they should not be helping their mother with the yard work and lawn mowing, taking out the garbage, fixing little things around the house, carrying in the groceries.
Are you really telling us that their father, YOU, haven’t shown them how to do these things? And that your wife, in addition to taking care of the children and the house is also mowing the lawn. :eek:
They can put away their own laundry. The fact that she has not made them responsible for these things is beyond me. I think it would lighten her “load” so to speak, but she claims they are too busy with school, homework and extracurricular activities. I do not think the laundry has been put away for two weeks and I am now living out of the dryer.
Someone needs to take a week off of work so he can see what his wife does all week. Guess, what. I bet you know how to fold laundry. How about being the husband you promised, in your weddings vows, to be?
Sorry to vent I just need a place where I can place all my burdens on the altar. Please pray for me, and for my wife. I love her so dearly and only want the best. This is just very hard for me to accept.

Thanks
Roland
Do you believe that getting into heaven is directly tied to how many children you have??
 
Hi Roland,

Welcome to the forum! I definitely agree that neither of you should be sterilized, and you should not use condoms. However, I have a few specific comments on some things you said:
I have read Humanae Vitae and at this point I just don’t believe we have a grave or just reason to avoid conception. I love our big family and we can afford to welcome another little soul - maybe even a girl. My wife believes that she is “burned out” on pregnancy and childcare and sick of the demands on her. She said she couldn’t do it all again. To tell you the truth, it’s hard for me to accept because before we got married we used to talk about having a baker’s dozen of children. My wife’s health really is fine, our house is big enough, and I’m not sure I can say with a pure heart that I believe we should avoid having more children other than for selfish reasons. It would grieve me to abstain during her fertile periods, knowing I was participating in it. And anyway she says NFP is not good enough and too much work. I guess her cycles are not regular anymore? Plus she is up all hours of the night with Ben, the baby.
If she refuses to do NFP, then I suppose it doesn’t matter, but I think that a wife feeling overwhelmed with caring for 7 children most certainly could be a valid justification for using NFP to avoid pregnancy. You mentioned in another post that you work 70 hours per week. That really puts a lot of responsibility on her for raising the kids and doing the household chores. If she is feeling burned out, then my advice would be for you to get on board with trying to avoid pregnancy at least for now. (It’s always possible that she could change her mind in the future.) But of course you shouldn’t use immoral means to avoid pregnancy.
Patricia, my wife, wants to hire a housekeeper every other week so that she can relax more. I think that’s a bit extravagant and silly, but I might be willing to go for it if it means she could be open to the possibility of LIFE.
I don’t think it is silly, and I think it would be extravagant only if you can’t afford it. But if you can afford the housekeeper, then it sounds to me like a great idea. It also would be a good idea to get the kids helping with the household chores, if they aren’t doing so already. It sounds like your wife is just very tired and overwhelmed right now. If you can find ways to ease her burden a bit (like hiring the housekeeper), it sounds like that would be a big help.

Just my two cents.

Paul
 
Is being tired really a valid reason to avoid welcoming another baby? My wife is healthy, slim, does not struggle with mental illness - and yes of course she’s tired with the 7 boys - but beyond that I really do not feel she is unwell or unstable.

In no way do I consider my lovely wife to be a “baby factory” - but we did agree to welcome as many children as God sees fit. In some ways I feel she is reneging on our vows, and telling God she knows best. I am concerned for her soul, because she obviously wants to be the decider as to how many children we have. Many women care for far more than 7 children (and let’s be honest, the three or four oldest are pretty much self-sufficient, so it’s not like she’s caring for 7 little ones.)
First, I can speak from personal experience that teenagers can be just as difficult to raise up as newborns. Yes, they can physically care for themselves - to a degree - but they can and should be emotionally exhausting because they themselves are treading one of the most precarious times of their lives. They’re hard because adolescence is hard. Period.

Again, Roland, you and your wife simply must seek the pastoral guidance of a holy priest regarding growing your family. He needs to hear your side of the issue; he needs to hear your wife’s side of things; and he needs to give both of your guidance in light of Catholic teachings on marriage and family life and the vocation of marriage.

A bit of charitable advice: please stop comparing your wife to other women and what they can and cannot do regarding child rearing. Or anything, really. It’s really disrespectful of your wife and your mariage. It’s passive-agressive behavior at its finest.

I speak as a Catholic wife when I say that if I found out that my husband was coming on to an anonymous online forum “concerned” about our family size, my ability to parent a set number of children, my committment to our marriage vows, the fact that I felt overwhelmed by the children and the housework and he just couldn’t understand why, I would feel beyond betrayed.

You owe as a man who respects both his wife and his marriage to sit down and air your concerns in a setting where your wife has the chance to tell her side of the story. That setting is not CAF.

Luna
 
but we did agree to welcome as many children as God sees fit. In some ways I feel she is reneging on our vows, and telling God she knows best.
roland, this statement is problematic and consistent with your problematic assertions throughout. catholic couples do NOT, by virtue of the sacrament of marriage, agree to have as many children as God decides to give them. they vow to be open to life, viewing children as gifts from God and they vow to practice responsible parenthood.

of course, in this, it’s easy to get snaggled in the cultural slog i.e., that a couple needs reason to have a baby as opposed to what the church teaches-- that a couple need reason to space children or avoid pregnancy.

but roland, your wife says, “no more.” for the time being, that IS your grave reason. there it is.

now, you dont like that and suspect she probably doesnt have grave reason to avoid. perhaps you’re right. maybe she really just does want to take up tennis and have some fun. OK, then, i wont argue anymore whether her reasons are valid. but a good husband asks sincere questions, trying to listen with his heart. he tries to-- patiently and lovingly-- remove the barriers between his wife and her openness. he prays for her. perhaps he doesnt cater to her every whim, but he avoids judging her requests as extravagant and silly.

he respects her. even if he doesnt entirely understand.

threatening to be sterilized demonstrates a misunderstanding on your wife’s part. a mis-
understanding at best, a willingness to commit mortal sin at worst.

conversely, dismissing her experience, her persepctive and her wishes, and positing your marriage on ‘agreement’ as opposed to covenant’, and positing your disparities on her ‘reneging’ demonstrates that you, too operate under some significatly faulty thinking as to what is required of you in the sacrament of marriage.

if your wife were here, i’d say, “do not commit mortal sin by using ABC. pray and get counseling because 1. you need a clearer view of your mission,. 2. your husband needs to learn to hear your heart.”

but she isnt here on CAF. so instead, i reiterate more pointedly: you arent hearing her heart. youre judging her, scoring her, and trying to ***change ***where she is without deeply understanding where she is. if she’s a wonderful wife, you owe it to her. if she’s an un-wonderfil wife, you still owe it to her. your vow is to LOVE her. you cant love her if you’re not listening.
’

from the catechism:
2367 Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.153 "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."154
2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. **It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. **Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.155
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.157 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom.
 
threatening to be sterilized demonstrates a misunderstanding on your wife’s part. a mis-understanding at best, a willingness to commit mortal sin at worst.
All I can picture is a woman, ready to put her hair out, screaming, “no, no, no…I cannot take any more. That is it, you want more children right now, I will have my tubes tied.”

This is a woman at the end of her rope. She sees no way out. And her husband wants to pour more onto her. She is drowning already.
 
One other thing, marriage is a vocation. Children are fruit of the marriage, but, they are not the vocation.
 
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