"Hierarchy" of Opinions?

[Truth_Faith13]

The title is a little weird, but I couldn’t think of another way to describe it. Another posters thread has got me thinking about the teachings of the church, those who “teach it” and then the rest who give opinions of x y and z etc.

Anyhow, this poster had spoken to their priest about a certain issue which would under normal circumstances be against church teaching. However the priest, unlike posters on here, seemed ok with the idea (that which goes against church teaching).

This got me thinking, on most topics, people seem to say “go talk to your priest”, the hierarchy of the church. Seems like a valid thing to do, however in this case, the poster has spoken to her priest and some posters disagree with the priests suggestions? But this is a priest so the usual “go talk to your priest” doesn’t work?

The priest is the one to hear confessions etc right? To stand in “proxy” of God to forgive sins? So the priest would seem to be the qualified one? So if the posters here are disagreeing with the priest, how are you supposed to know what is right, what is wrong? You could go further up the hierarchy but I’m guessing you would have the same different people handling things differently?

You rely on the church to interpret laws etc but what if the church (priests etc) tell you something different?

Confused?

 

[Groo]

Here is what St. Philip Neri said about spiritual counsel:

They who really wish to advance in the ways of God, must give themselves up into the hands of their superiors always and in everything; and they who are not living under obedience must subject themselves of their own accord to a learned and discreet confessor, whom they must obey in the place of God, disclosing to him with perfect freedom and simplicity the affairs of their soul, and they should never come to any resolution without his advice.

To me, this means to find a spiritual director who you trust (through prayer). Seek his or her guidance with complete openness and honesty. And don’t worry.

 

[Jared2914]

Well, I follow the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is based on theology, which is based on the Bible. If a priest says something that is contrary to that, they are not following church doctrine, and I will not to follow their advice. However, not every possible situation is spelled out in the Bible or the Catechism. It is left to priests as well as lay people to make these interpretations based on the Bible and Catechism. In short, I trust our priests unless they say something that is contrary to church doctrine.

I think of theology like science. When a new theory is made, it has to stand the test of time before scientists will generally agree it is true. The same is true in theology. Some new idea about the religion is proposed. After years of strenuous study by theologians, the Church comes to a consensus that the idea is either true or not true. Also, we know the Church as a whole is guided by the Holy Spirit when it comes to doctrine. Individuals in the Church may do wrong, but the Church as a whole can never go wrong.

 

[Xantippe]

I think that a priest is most helpful in cases with a big interpersonal component, where the person needs help with navigating a complex situation that there aren’t ready made answers to, or where you need someone to be in-person in order to evaluate mental state and functioning (i.e. is the OP nuts?).

I think a priest can also be very helpful in helping people navigate the first steps in the annulment process, for instance to help with figuring out if they have a case. (That’s another issue with a big interpersonal component.)

 

[LongingSoul]

The title is a little weird, but I couldn’t think of another way to describe it. Another posters thread has got me thinking about the teachings of the church, those who “teach it” and then the rest who give opinions of x y and z etc.

Anyhow, this poster had spoken to their priest about a certain issue which would under normal circumstances be against church teaching. However the priest, unlike posters on here, seemed ok with the idea (that which goes against church teaching).

This got me thinking, on most topics, people seem to say “go talk to your priest”, the hierarchy of the church. Seems like a valid thing to do, however in this case, the poster has spoken to her priest and some posters disagree with the priests suggestions? But this is a priest so the usual “go talk to your priest” doesn’t work?

The priest is the one to hear confessions etc right? To stand in “proxy” of God to forgive sins? So the priest would seem to be the qualified one? So if the posters here are disagreeing with the priest, how are you supposed to know what is right, what is wrong? You could go further up the hierarchy but I’m guessing you would have the same different people handling things differently?

You rely on the church to interpret laws etc but what if the church (priests etc) tell you something different?

Confused?

A priest can help a person discern and give a person the Church perspective on things like the principle of double effect, but if you aren’t a person with a history of scrupulosity, it can be a sign that the conscience is still discerning, if a Priests advice doesn’t assuage your doubts and you are needing to look elsewhere for validation.

 

[robwar]

The title is a little weird, but I couldn’t think of another way to describe it. Another posters thread has got me thinking about the teachings of the church, those who “teach it” and then the rest who give opinions of x y and z etc.

Anyhow, this poster had spoken to their priest about a certain issue which would under normal circumstances be against church teaching. However the priest, unlike posters on here, seemed ok with the idea (that which goes against church teaching).

This got me thinking, on most topics, people seem to say “go talk to your priest”, the hierarchy of the church. Seems like a valid thing to do, however in this case, the poster has spoken to her priest and some posters disagree with the priests suggestions? But this is a priest so the usual “go talk to your priest” doesn’t work?

The priest is the one to hear confessions etc right? To stand in “proxy” of God to forgive sins? So the priest would seem to be the qualified one? So if the posters here are disagreeing with the priest, how are you supposed to know what is right, what is wrong? You could go further up the hierarchy but I’m guessing you would have the same different people handling things differently?

You rely on the church to interpret laws etc but what if the church (priests etc) tell you something different?

Confused?

Somtimes, we do not really know actually what a particular priest might have said to a particular person. We need to always be careful in reading posts from someone who is claiming, I went to Fr. X over blank (against Church teaching) and he said it was ok. Now maybe that is true and the comment was done in a more pastoral way to reassure someone (that God forgives them), or the person thought Fr. X said blank and then took that and posted it on the interent for the world to see. Fr. X really didn’t say blank but the person thought or misunderstand what Fr. X said. Unless we have a tape recording, we will never know. I think when we see posts from someone that went to some priest somewhere over X and now they are claiming the priest said it was ok, I just get kinda suspecious and wonder what really was said and then take everything I might read on the internet with a grain of salt.

 

[1ke]

The Church gives us clear teaching through the catechism and the bishops. We are to form our consciences by reading and learning what the Church teaches. We should study the bible, read the Catechism, read other magesterial documents and writings of the Church. We should also form our conscience by listening to our pastors in their homilies or through individual spiritual counsel, in confession, etc.

The pastors are sent by the bishop to teach and shepherd locally. Priests cannot give permission to do something that is against the teaching of the Church or counsel people to go against Church teaching. Those who do so are in error. If one knows this is erroneous advice, one is bound not to follow it. If one does not know, and is misled by this bad counsel, they are not culpable.

Christ had harsh words for what you describe:

Matthew 18:6-7
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Thanks all for your replies!

I guess what is most confusing is that the CC is the one church that believes in a visible church here with us, one that can govern and lead its flock along the right path (or try to).

A quick question is can anyone change what is in the catechism?? Bishop, Pope etc etc?

The reason I ask is if the answer is yes and it is the hierarchy job to determine what is right and wrong morally…if said hierarchy was to “allow” something that was thought to be forbidden is this still wrong? or is this what they are here to do (ie visible church)?

If they dont, then it is similar to having an invisible church ie NOTHING is changeable!??

Please note, I am asking questions here, not stating facts, as I get myself confused in this area! Thanks

 

[1ke]

A quick question is can anyone change what is in the catechism?? Bishop, Pope etc etc?

The catechism encompasses both doctrine and discipline. So yes, the Pope and the Magesterium can change disciplines, as they have many times.

I believe what you are asking is can they change doctrine of the Church. The answer is no.

If they dont, then it is similar to having an invisible church ie NOTHING is changeable!??

One must properly understand the difference between doctrine and discipline.

It is not an either/or situation-- either everything is changeable or nothing is changeable.

Discipline is changeable and doctrine is not.

 

[EasterJoy]

The catechism encompasses both doctrine and discipline. So yes, the Pope and the Magesterium can change disciplines, as they have many times.

I believe what you are asking is can they change doctrine of the Church. The answer is no.

One must properly understand the difference between doctrine and discipline.

It is not an either/or situation-- either everything is changeable or nothing is changeable.

Discipline is changeable and doctrine is not.

You give the best answers.

There is also a difference between doctrine and dogma and between these two and their explanations.

For instance, it must be believed that Jesus literally rose from the dead. That does not mean we have to believe some particular metaphysical explanation put forward to help us understand the dogma. Furthermore, the Church does not give an unequivocal answer to every question she considers. Sometimes, we just cannot know an exact answer with certainty, and the Church says so.

 

[EasterJoy]

The title is a little weird, but I couldn’t think of another way to describe it. Another posters thread has got me thinking about the teachings of the church, those who “teach it” and then the rest who give opinions of x y and z etc.

Anyhow, this poster had spoken to their priest about a certain issue which would under normal circumstances be against church teaching. However the priest, unlike posters on here, seemed ok with the idea (that which goes against church teaching).

This got me thinking, on most topics, people seem to say “go talk to your priest”, the hierarchy of the church. Seems like a valid thing to do, however in this case, the poster has spoken to her priest and some posters disagree with the priests suggestions? But this is a priest so the usual “go talk to your priest” doesn’t work?

The priest is the one to hear confessions etc right? To stand in “proxy” of God to forgive sins? So the priest would seem to be the qualified one? So if the posters here are disagreeing with the priest, how are you supposed to know what is right, what is wrong? You could go further up the hierarchy but I’m guessing you would have the same different people handling things differently?

You rely on the church to interpret laws etc but what if the church (priests etc) tell you something different?

Priests are not given the protection of infallibility. They can make mistakes when teaching faith and morals. When speaking off of the cuff (rather than ex cathedra), the truth is that anyone can. Even the Pope can misspeak by accident.

If you are misled by your pastor into actions you were taught are morally permissible, even though you did your best to form your conscience rightly, you are not culpable for as long as you are honestly innocent of your error. If he leads you into the wrong knowingly or out of neglect, he is culpable. (Not that this is a limited human court, or that there is some heavenly ledger of wrongs that have to be added up as if in a bank. God keeps real justice, with true compassion and full understanding! I speak in this manner only so that you will have an idea of what to confess and what is not your fault.)

If you allow yourself to be mislead even though you really know better or have reason to believe you ought to investigate whether your conscience has been formed rightly, then you have to carry the responsibility for misleading yourself. If you want to be certain your conscience is being formed rightly, then, rely on off-the-cuff explanations only for as long as you have to. When you can, find out what comes straight from the official pronouncements of the Magisterium. If you realize you have sinned through your own fault, whether by willfully taking wrong advice as an excuse or out of neglect to form your conscience rightly, then confess that, receive absolution, and do better in the future. Do your best to form your conscience rightly, but do not live in fear because you don’t know everything or cannot judge every situation rightly. A well-formed conscience is meant to be your ally, your guardian angel, not your accuser!