High Altars

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PA650 said:
It’s too bad the impassioned view FAB holds has plunged the Roman Rite into great confusion.
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As a life-long Roman Catholic myself, I’m more disappointed that I was never actually taught any symbolism, even though I’ve been born post-V2 and that since birth most parishes I’ve been to do not have altar rails. Some of them did. But still, the sanctuary in an RC church is elevated, thus there is a clear separation of area. I am not aware on any symbolic meaning except for the part that its where the sacrifice happens.

I’ve only recently taken a huge interest in the Byzantine Rite and am discerning a switch of rites. I came across a video where a priest talks about the architecture of a Byzantine church and that is the explanation he offered on the Iconostatis, and why the need for a “wall” to separate the sanctuary from the nave. More orthodox Byzantine parishes would have a solid wall Iconostasis. The parish I go to has more like a fence where you can peek through in between the Icons and the posts.
 
CatholicLife said:
Before 🙂

seattlecatholic.com/images/articles/MilwaukeeCathedral_before.jpg

After:mad:

flickr.com/photos/retinalfetish/213710318/
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I’m not totally against modern architecture and modern designs. I am currently reading Orientale Lumen from Pope John Paul II and part of it is him explaining that traditions shouldn’t mean that we should be stuck in the past, that traditions can be represented in the present so that current generations will have a better appreciation of the traditions, and how well this is done in the East. But that “after” photo literally made me scratch my head. How does those things hanging from the ceiling link to anything in Christian tradition?
 
FAB said:
I’m not certain waht you mean. The reason for the use of the high altar is part of history as well as the reason it is no longer necessary as part of the construction of church’s. The confusion comes because many have not been taught or have not listened to why the Church does what it does and why.
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I have always felt I was quite a knowledgeable convert to the Catholic Church. In addition, I am aware of the various changes that have occurred in the Church’s Roman Rite liturgy and thus changes enacted in the design of modern Catholic churches and the inevitable renovations of older Catholic churches. Now, with all this in mind, I personally prefer the Missal of Blessed John XXXII rather than ubiquitous banal implementation of the Missal of Pope Paul VI. Overall, the iconoclasm inflicted on the Church following the Second Vatican Council has done nothing to bring a new Springtime for the Church in modern societies as secularism and practical atheism has practically pushed Christianity out of the public square in developed nation-states. I can certainly believe a ‘reform of the reform’ of the Ordinary Form can reestablish a continuity between the Church’s liturgy before and after the Second Vatican Council, but I don’t have much faith of that occurring in today’s climate. Quite a diatribe, I admit with some pertinence to your statement.
As a life-long Roman Catholic myself, I’m more disappointed that I was never actually taught any symbolism, even though I’ve been born post-V2 and that since birth most parishes I’ve been to do not have altar rails. Some of them did. But still, the sanctuary in an RC church is elevated, thus there is a clear separation of area. I am not aware on any symbolic meaning except for the part that its where the sacrifice happens.
Click to expand...
I’ve only recently taken a huge interest in the Byzantine Rite and am discerning a switch of rites. I came across a video where a priest talks about the architecture of a Byzantine church and that is the explanation he offered on the Iconostatis, and why the need for a “wall” to separate the sanctuary from the nave. More orthodox Byzantine parishes would have a solid wall Iconostasis. The parish I go to has more like a fence where you can peek through in between the Icons and the posts.
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I find your opinion very insightful on this matter. My understanding of the matter was that the communion/altar rail replaced the rood screen following the Council of Trent, thus a separation between the nave and sanctuary continued, albeit minimized in comparison to the standard rood screen.
 
PA650 said:
I find your opinion very insightful on this matter. My understanding of the matter was that the communion/altar rail replaced the rood screen following the Council of Trent, thus a separation between the nave and sanctuary continued, albeit minimized in comparison to the standard rood screen.
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Thanks! I just like to share the things that I also recently learned. Also that some comments were made on why there is an altar rail, besides its use for Communion, it got me intrigued now on what its symbolic meaning is in Roman Catholic architecture.
 
TheMc said:
I don’t mean to anger anyone, but this is simply wrong. In no way does the altar rail and high altar symbolize our separation from Christ. Where are you getting this from?
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lex orandi lex credendi
 
TheMc said:
I hope so.

Good question. Very good question… I wonder the same thing.
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At the parish were I attend mass with my Catholic wife, the high altar and the marble communion rails are still in place. It’s not the most affluent parish around. If they had the money, someone would probably want to “modernize” it. I agree…it’s a crime.
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ConstantineTG said:
As a life-long Roman Catholic myself, I’m more disappointed that I was never actually taught any symbolism, even though I’ve been born post-V2 and that since birth most parishes I’ve been to do not have altar rails. Some of them did. But still, the sanctuary in an RC church is elevated, thus there is a clear separation of area. I am not aware on any symbolic meaning except for the part that its where the sacrifice happens.

I’ve only recently taken a huge interest in the Byzantine Rite and am discerning a switch of rites. I came across a video where a priest talks about the architecture of a Byzantine church and that is the explanation he offered on the Iconostatis, and why the need for a “wall” to separate the sanctuary from the nave. More orthodox Byzantine parishes would have a solid wall Iconostasis. The parish I go to has more like a fence where you can peek through in between the Icons and the posts.
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The Altar is actually suppose to be at the same level of the congregation, but because of very practical reasons so the faithful can see the sacrafice of the mass it is elevated.
 
Is that really the case? From my understanding it is supposed to be raised, traditionally three steps, the number three obviously being highly rich in meaning. And I’m with malphono on this, FAB seems to be expressing nothing but opinions over and over again. What is FAB basing all of his/her assertions on?
 
FAB said:
The Altar is actually suppose to be at the same level of the congregation, but because of very practical reasons so the faithful can see the sacrafice of the mass it is elevated.
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In the Byzantine Rite the sanctuary is raised as well. But in the most orthodox of Byzantine parishes, they will close the Holy Doors and even a curtain so as the mystery is shielded from the eyes of the laity. So an elevated sanctuary in this instance is not because people should see the sacrifice.
 
paddy22 said:
Is that really the case? From my understanding it is supposed to be raised, traditionally three steps, the number three obviously being highly rich in meaning. And I’m with malphono on this, FAB seems to be expressing nothing but opinions over and over again. What is FAB basing all of his/her assertions on?
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I am weeks from being ordained to answer your question of where my assertions are coming from. Formation has included church history, which included church architecture, theolgy and liturgy.

Three steps is the max, number, not min.
 
Thank you for answering that, and congratulations on your close ordination. I still think some of what you have said in this thread sounds more like opinion or your own interpretation of church documents.
 
paddy22 said:
Thank you for answering that, and congratulations on your close ordination. I still think some of what you have said in this thread sounds more like opinion or your own interpretation of church documents.
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These questions have come out in class discusions. Many Catholic as are still looking for the reasons for the changes in architecture. I do understand why many miss them. My expainations are to give an insight into the thought process invovled.
The Second Vatican Council sought to open the liturgy. To make it a community that worships together. There are valid points about the grandure of a high altar. As far as works of at that enhance the experiance of worship, they do have a place as does any approriate artwork. On the other hand, I hold no similar opinions to the altar rail.
 
FAB said:
The Altar is actually suppose to be at the same level of the congregation, but because of very practical reasons so the faithful can see the sacrafice of the mass it is elevated.
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  1. The sanctuary is the place where the altar stands, where the word of God is proclaimed, and where the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers exercise their offices. It should suitably be marked off from the body of the church either by its being somewhat elevated or by a particular structure and ornamentation. It should, however, be large enough to allow the Eucharist to be celebrated properly and easily seen

    ​
 
markomalley said:
  1. The sanctuary is the place where the altar stands, where the word of God is proclaimed, and where the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers exercise their offices. It should suitably be marked off from the body of the church either by its being somewhat elevated or by a particular structure and ornamentation. It should, however, be large enough to allow the Eucharist to be celebrated properly and easily seen

    ​
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Key words: marked off by…either by it’s being some what elevated or by a particular structure and ornamentation…large enough to allow the Eucharist to be celebrated properly and easily seen
 
FAB said:
Key words: marked off by…either by it’s being some what elevated or by a particular structure and ornamentation…large enough to allow the Eucharist to be celebrated properly and easily seen
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Sorry: but the key words are "It should suitably be marked off from the body of the church

In other words it should be separated.

Where are you going to seminary, if I may ask?
 
h1478971 said:
What a shame. I believe High Altars should definately make a comeback. Eliminating Versus Populum and making the OF Mass Ad Orientem in Latin is the right step.

It borders on criminality to destroy High Altars. They are irreplaceable.
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Whether Novus Ordo or Usus Antiquior, I fully agree with Ad Orientem worship (one reason why I really love to go to Greenville SC is so that I can participate regularly in an Ad Orientem Novus Ordo.

(Personally, I’d like to see a resurgence in the Rood Screen, myself…but that’s just me)

What a lot of folks don’t understand is the real significance of the old adage, lex orandi lex credendi. Frankly, that explains a lot of what is going on in the Church with all the dissent nowadays. When the mysteries are removed from the liturgy…chaos follows.

Like the Congregation for Divine Worship wrote back in 1970 in their instruction Liturgicae instaurationes:
Liturgical reform is not synonymous with so called *desacralization *and should not be the occasion for what is called the secularization of the world. Thus the liturgical rites must retain a dignified and sacred character.
Unfortunately, “desacralization” is what we are seeing and have seen for so long that many consider that to be the norm…not the abberation.
 
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