"Higher" place in heaven

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HIGHER PLACE IN HEAVEN?
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 Hm! As I recall the disciples debated that at least twice as recorded in the scriptures. 

 Mark 9:34-35. Jesus said that whoever wants to be first must be last, servant of all.

 Luke 22:24-27. Jesus makes the same point.

 A quick story. John Wesley once had a dream. He was at the gates of heaven where he met St. Peter. He inquired: who is in heaven? Catholics? St. Peter checked his big book under R and C. "No Catholic here," he replied. Wesley was not surprised. How about Anglicans? St. Peter checked under A and CofE and E - none of those either. He asked about Lutherans, Baptists, Calvinists - no, none of these. Wesley became nervous, but finally got up the courage: "Are there any Methodists in heaven?" St. Peter carefully checked and answered the same way. No Methodists in heaven.

  Wesley, stunned and worried, went on.  So, who is in heaven? St. Peter checked his big book. "They all seem to be simply listed as Christians," was his reply. 

   My view is that God doesn't pay any attention to our church label. He weighs (1) love of God and (2) love of one another - the two great commandments.

   And my guess is that there will also be plenty of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Bahaists, Zoroastrians, people of native American religions - etc. We can't pretend to know much about life eternal, but it could be an exciting time for all who get there. We can have some really fascinating religious discussions when no one will boast of spiritual superiority.
 
Still waiting for Hisalone to provide a source or rationale for the idea that there are higher or lower places in heaven.

Paul
 
Someone who believes in “once saved, always saved” tried to explain that there are “mansions” and “crowns” in heaven and that what we do on this earth will determine which mansion (higher/lower?) we will inhabit in heaven or whether we will wear a crown or not. Seems that this person thinks “works” may not get you into heaven, but will get you a better place.
 
Hisalone said:
biblebb.com/files/edwards/JE-mansions.htm

bible-knowledge.com/Rewards-in-Heaven.html

precious-testimonies.com/Other/secretrewards.htm
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No one here denies that in the father’s house there are many mansions. But nowhere is there evidence that there are different levels of mansions.

Your links all do the same thing. They use the bible to show that there are many mansions, then use the opinions of men to show that there are different levels of mansions. That is disingenuous.

When you are in the presence of the Father, you are there. Period. There is no good, better or best in the Father’s presence. It is nothing but the best.

Consider Jesus’ parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Mt 20:1-16). All of the laborers received the same wages, though there labors (works) were not equal. That was a parable about heavenly rewards.

Paul
 
PaulDupre said:
No one here denies that in the father’s house there are many mansions. But nowhere is there evidence that there are different levels of mansions.

Your links all do the same thing. They use the bible to show that there are many mansions, then use the opinions of men to show that there are different levels of mansions. That is disingenuous.

When you are in the presence of the Father, you are there. Period. There is no good, better or best in the Father’s presence. It is nothing but the best.

Consider Jesus’ parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Mt 20:1-16). All of the laborers received the same wages, though there labors (works) were not equal. That was a parable about heavenly rewards.
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Paul, I think it may be that your experience with LDS thought regarding the “levels of Heaven” on this may be coloring your understanding of the Catholic teaching (not these Fundamentalist Protestant ones, which you rightly reject). Certainly, the term “levels of Heaven” is a misleading one, as if you will live in Heaven on that street and I will live on another street and Jane Smith will live on yet another and never the twain shall meet. 🙂

All the saved will indeed receive the same “wage” of the Beatific Vision. In that Vision, however, there is a variety in the intensity each soul experiences of It. Each individual will experience the Beatific Vision with a unique intensity suited to how his soul (and each soul is unique in itself) has corresponded to the graces received from God while on earth. Eternal life with God will be the fulfillment of God’s action in that soul to the degree that the soul has consented to His action upon it in Divine Charity. The greater the conformity to the Image of the Incarnate Son, the greater the intensity of Communion. “Heavenly glory, or essential beatitude, is proportioned to the degree of grace or charity which precedes entry to heaven,” Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., The Mother of the Saviour and Our Interior Life.

The Lord says that, “He [the Son of Man] will render to every one according to his works,” Matt. 16:27; and St. Paul teaches, “And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour,” 1 Cor. 3:8; and “He who soweth sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he that soweth in blessings shall also reap blessings,” 2 Cor. 9:6.

And, as the Council of Florence decreed:"[The souls of the perfectly just] clearly behold the Triune and One God as He is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other."

If you consider this with the Blessed Virgin in mind, I think you will see why each soul’s experience of the Beatific Vision is/will be unique. In view of her Divine Motherhood, she is related to the Most Holy Trinity in the highest way, far higher than any human or angel can ever be; thus she enjoys the Beatific Vision commensurate with that relationship.
 
FCEGM said:
Paul, I think it may be that your experience with LDS thought regarding the “levels of Heaven” on this may be coloring your understanding of the Catholic teaching (not these Fundamentalist Protestant ones, which you rightly reject). Certainly, the term “levels of Heaven” is a misleading one, as if you will live in Heaven on that street and I will live on another street and Jane Smith will live on yet another and never the twain shall meet. 🙂

All the saved will indeed receive the same “wage” of the Beatific Vision. In that Vision, however, there is a variety in the intensity each soul experiences of It. Each individual will experience the Beatific Vision with a unique intensity suited to how his soul (and each soul is unique in itself) has corresponded to the graces received from God while on earth. Eternal life with God will be the fulfillment of God’s action in that soul to the degree that the soul has consented to His action upon it in Divine Charity. The greater the conformity to the Image of the Incarnate Son, the greater the intensity of Communion. “Heavenly glory, or essential beatitude, is proportioned to the degree of grace or charity which precedes entry to heaven,” Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., The Mother of the Saviour and Our Interior Life.

The Lord says that, “He [the Son of Man] will render to every one according to his works,” Matt. 16:27; and St. Paul teaches, “And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour,” 1 Cor. 3:8; and “He who soweth sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he that soweth in blessings shall also reap blessings,” 2 Cor. 9:6.

And, as the Council of Florence decreed:"[The souls of the perfectly just] clearly behold the Triune and One God as He is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other."

If you consider this with the Blessed Virgin in mind, I think you will see why each soul’s experience of the Beatific Vision is/will be unique. In view of her Divine Motherhood, she is related to the Most Holy Trinity in the highest way, far higher than any human or angel can ever be; thus she enjoys the Beatific Vision commensurate with that relationship.
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And yet, each one’s joy in heaven will be filled to the brim, overflowing, — there will be no envy in heaven— just joy for the glory given to God ----
 
PaulDupre said:
Consider Jesus’ parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Mt 20:1-16). All of the laborers received the same wages, though there labors (works) were not equal. That was a parable about heavenly rewards.

Paul
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this parable is about salvation. One who is saved on their deathbed will reach their reward(heaven) just as someone who has known Christ since childhood.
 
Are not mansions different are not some smaller are not some bigger. Some have swimming pools some have 4 car garages some have 6 car garages etc etc.
 
FCEGM said:
Paul, I think it may be that your experience with LDS thought regarding the “levels of Heaven” on this may be coloring your understanding of the Catholic teaching (not these Fundamentalist Protestant ones, which you rightly reject). Certainly, the term “levels of Heaven” is a misleading one, as if you will live in Heaven on that street and I will live on another street and Jane Smith will live on yet another and never the twain shall meet. 🙂

All the saved will indeed receive the same “wage” of the Beatific Vision. In that Vision, however, there is a variety in the intensity each soul experiences of It. Each individual will experience the Beatific Vision with a unique intensity suited to how his soul (and each soul is unique in itself) has corresponded to the graces received from God while on earth. Eternal life with God will be the fulfillment of God’s action in that soul to the degree that the soul has consented to His action upon it in Divine Charity. The greater the conformity to the Image of the Incarnate Son, the greater the intensity of Communion. “Heavenly glory, or essential beatitude, is proportioned to the degree of grace or charity which precedes entry to heaven,” Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., The Mother of the Saviour and Our Interior Life.

The Lord says that, “He [the Son of Man] will render to every one according to his works,” Matt. 16:27; and St. Paul teaches, “And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour,” 1 Cor. 3:8; and “He who soweth sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he that soweth in blessings shall also reap blessings,” 2 Cor. 9:6.

And, as the Council of Florence decreed:"[The souls of the perfectly just] clearly behold the Triune and One God as He is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other."

If you consider this with the Blessed Virgin in mind, I think you will see why each soul’s experience of the Beatific Vision is/will be unique. In view of her Divine Motherhood, she is related to the Most Holy Trinity in the highest way, far higher than any human or angel can ever be; thus she enjoys the Beatific Vision commensurate with that relationship.
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Okay, that I agree with. And you’re correct it is my Mormon experience that has made me very wary of any description of heaven that segregates us into heaven-ghettos.

I subscribe to the idea that everyone in heaven will be completely happy (ie: as happy as they can possibly be) but that different people will be capable of more or less joy, according to their preparation on earth (ie: their works).

I heard a great example of 3 cups of water - a 1-oz medicine cup, an 8-oz tumbler and a “thirsty-two ouncer”. Each cup is full to the brim. Now which cup is more full? They are all equally full. But which one holds more water? The one that was prepared to hold more.

I believe heavenly reward is like that. I don’t believe that those who hold less will feel any lack of joy because their joy will be full. That is the Catholic view as I understand it.

Sorry I didn’t express myself fully the first time.

Thanks for your insightful reply,
Paul
 
Hisalone said:
Are not mansions different are not some smaller are not some bigger. Some have swimming pools some have 4 car garages some have 6 car garages etc etc.
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Do you really think that in heaven we wll be living in houses with cars and swimming pools? Really?
 
PaulDupre said:
I heard a great example of 3 cups of water - a 1-oz medicine cup, an 8-oz tumbler and a “thirsty-two ouncer”. Each cup is full to the brim. Now which cup is more full? They are all equally full. But which one holds more water? The one that was prepared to hold more.

I believe heavenly reward is like that. I don’t believe that those who hold less will feel any lack of joy because their joy will be full. That is the Catholic view as I understand it.

Sorry I didn’t express myself fully the first time.

Thanks for your insightful reply,
Paul
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🙂 The full cup analogy is always a helpful one, Paul. May we be filled to the brim! 🙂
 
In heaven, we are given everything we need and/or could possibly want with respect to what is important… (I’m not talking about McMansions with swimming pools, 2.5 kids, and a little puppy dog named groucho)

We become like the angels…

We come to know God perfectly.

So… think about it like this…

If we are given everything useful to us in heaven… how can you add anything…

infinity + 1 is still infinity…

Setting up a situation where some could have more than others can potentially set the stage for envy…

All in heaven are equal…

doesn’t matter if you are protestant, catholic, or a non practicing alcoholic, if you are in heaven… you are equal to your neighbor…

Also…

Looking at “different size mansions” means you are looking at spiritual things with worldly eyes and what you create is a ‘what can I get out of God mentality’

Perhaps you instead should look at worldly things with spiritual eyes so that you can look at the world while you are here and say ‘how can I use that to glorify god’

In Christ
 
ralphinal said:
Why? God coould sit here and be there. Besides, isn’t that what omnipresent means?
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I suppose. But if there is a place for God to sit, then it seems there is a place where GOd isn’t sitting. Besides sitting requires a corpeal being, a physical entity. I can’t see how a physical being can be everywhere at once, including in me.
 
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