Highest form of prayer....sex?

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CuriousInIL said:
But, if being done in the correct frame of mind, the marital act can be likened to a renewal of the marriage vows (as John Paul II said) and therefore is sacred and holy, not “using your body in an animalistic state of pleasure.”

The marital act,though sanctified,still involves our animal bodily functions and sexual arousal. This has nothing to do with supplication,petition,repentance or purification,and is not the best way to give praise and thanksgiving.

Maybe not the highest form of prayer, but a form of prayer, and, indeed, maybe the highest form of prayer that the married couple as a married couple can perform.

How can it be the highest form of prayer that a married couple can perform when it involves the organs of our lower animal nature?
I would think that the highest form of prayer for a married couple would be to simply pray together in the way that prayer is commonly known,and with purity of heart,humility,meditation,concentration.

If Jesus Christ thought that the marital act was a higher form of prayer,would he not have recommended it to his disciples?
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How can it be the highest form of prayer that a married couple can perform when it involves the organs of our lower animal nature?
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Human beings, made in the image and likeness of God, are in no way comparable in their sexuality (organs or intellect) to other creatures.
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Our sexuality involves self-control and intent, not instinct. If that were the case, it would be impossible for a man to control himself in the presence of a beautiful woman, married or not.
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Human beings, in their entirety, are set apart from other creatures and so is human sexuality.
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anthony022071 said:
The marital act,though sanctified,still involves our animal bodily functions and sexual arousal. This has nothing to do with supplication,petition,repentance or purification,and is not the best way to give praise and thanksgiving.

How can it be the highest form of prayer that a married couple can perform when it involves the organs of our lower animal nature?
I would think that the highest form of prayer for a married couple would be to simply pray together in the way that prayer is commonly known,and with purity of heart,humility,meditation,concentration.

If Jesus Christ thought that the marital act was a higher form of prayer,would he not have recommended it to his disciples?
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I said the couple as a couple. Perhaps what I should have said is that the marital act is the highest form of prayer that the married couple can perform as one rather than two. The marital act is the way for a couple to be in the one flesh union. Praying “together in the way that is commonly known” is something that can be done by all, married or not, and thus IMO is the couple praying as two and not as one.
Also, the sexual organs are no more “the organs of our lower animal nature” than our arms, legs, mouths, etc. I think you give humans much too little credit (something I never thought I would say to another).
 
When the sex union is entered into as Husband, Wife, and God it is soulful prayer that reflects the union we have spiritually with each other as spouses & with God. It is a reflection of our Sacrament of Matrimony (a Sacrament from our Lord), our 2 fleshes becoming one and is about as close to another human being as we can get on Earth. God gave us the body and the senses not as part of a “lower nature” but as part of our entire human nature which is made in the image & likeness of God with the body/soul dynamic, if the sexual organs are lower then so are the rest of our bodies & what they connect us too.

If the entire Marriage is grounded in the relationship with God and is fed in other ways that support the totality of the union then yes sex between the spouses is indeed a form of prayer. It is a beautiful prayer that is not vulgar in any way. Sex between spouses is very holy & sacred act that is a form of prayer. I am not sure it is the highest form of prayer on the Earth (I can understand where the couple was coming from) but it is the only form we can enter into together as one flesh in our Marriage & in a Marriage it is ranks pretty high.

If more couples understood the overall spirituality that should be part of the sexual union in Marriage they would turn from actions that distort it.
 
Socio_Momma said:
When the sex union is entered into as Husband, Wife, and God it is soulful prayer that reflects the union we have spiritually with each other as spouses & with God. It is a reflection of our Sacrament of Matrimony (a Sacrament from our Lord), our 2 fleshes becoming one and is about as close to another human being as we can get on Earth. God gave us the body and the senses not as part of a “lower nature” but as part of our entire human nature which is made in the image & likeness of God with the body/soul dynamic, if the sexual organs are lower then so are the rest of our bodies & what they connect us too.

If the entire Marriage is grounded in the relationship with God and is fed in other ways that support the totality of the union then yes sex between the spouses is indeed a form of prayer. It is a beautiful prayer that is not vulgar in any way. Sex between spouses is very holy & sacred act that is a form of prayer. I am not sure it is the highest form of prayer on the Earth (I can understand where the couple was coming from) but it is the only form we can enter into together as one flesh in our Marriage & in a Marriage it is ranks pretty high.

If more couples understood the overall spirituality that should be part of the sexual union in Marriage they would turn from actions that distort it.
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Very well said.
 
Human beings, made in the image and likeness of God, are in no way comparable in their sexuality (organs or intellect) to other creatures.

When it comes to our sex organs,we are comparable to other creatures,just as we are comparable in the fact of death.
 
CuriousInIL said:
I said the couple as a couple. Perhaps what I should have said is that the marital act is the highest form of prayer that the married couple can perform as one rather than two.

The marital act is the way for a couple to be in the one flesh union.

A married couple is already considered to be,in a sense,as one flesh,simply on account of being married in the sight of God and the Church.

Praying “together in the way that is commonly known” is something that can be done by all, married or not, and thus IMO is the couple praying as two and not as one.
Also, the sexual organs are no more “the organs of our lower animal nature” than our arms, legs, mouths, etc.

They are indeed organs of our lower animal nature. Were that not the case,we would not keep them covered as we do. We evidently have cause for shame. They too easily provoke occasions for sin,and they involve the grosser bodily functions.

,and I think you give humans much too little credit (something I never thought I would say to another).
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Prayer involves communication or communion with God.

One does not communicate or commune with God in a state of sexual arousal – that is obscene. When one prays,it should be in a state of purity of heart and mind,or it should be an act of purification. When engaged in sexual activity,you can’t be giving your heart,mind and soul to God,because you are occupied with
matters of the flesh,and in a state of fleshly gratification.
You can’t spiritualize the physicality of the marital act to the point where you think you are actually praying to God. That is delusional.
 
anthony022071 said:
One does not communicate or commune with God in a state of sexual arousal – that is obscene. When one prays,it should be in a state of purity of heart and mind,or it should be an act of purification. When engaged in sexual activity,you can’t be giving your heart,mind and soul to God,because you are occupied with
matters of the flesh,and in a state of fleshly gratification.
You can’t spiritualize the physicality of the marital act to the point where you think you are actually praying to God. That is delusional.
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Quite wrong on all counts.
 
Yes, we are in a fallen state, but that in no way diminishes the original purpose of our sexuality.

Our original parents, Adam and Eve, were created in the same physical form that we are this day.

They were created as sexual beings. To say that at their creation, their sexual identity was somehow corrupt or a lesser part of their overall being is to say that God created them corrupt.

No, He created them perfectly for each other, in all ways physically, emotionally . . . sexually. Their sexuality was every much a part of them as were all of their other physical characteristics. And it was ALL GOOD.

After the fall, Adam looked at Eve in a different way. No longer satisfied with self-giving sexuality, he looked at her as an object for his own satisfaction, and thusly they covered themselves. We too cover ourselves as a result of our fallen nature, but that was not the way God originally intended for us to be.

Human sexuality has been corrupted by mankind since the fall. It can be a grave source of sin, both within and outside the marital covenant, but that isn’t God’s intention and it will never be his intention.

We are not animals. Animals have no self-control. Animal’s sexual reaction is self-serving, not self-giving. When human beings behave LIKE animals sexually, the actions can be sinful. But a human being is capable of self-control, because the mind has power over the body. Humans have the ability to be self-giving and God expects nothing less from us.

Please read JPII’s Theology of the Body, or Christopher West’s “Theology of the Body for Beginners” or “The Good News about Sex and Marriage”.

We need to bring up these low expectations that we and society have set for ourselves. The world would be a far less chaotic place.
 
Hmm, the statement is too vague and could mean several things, especially as it is taken out of context.

Seen in the context of preparing couples for a vocation to marriage, could the instructors possibly have meant it was the highest form of prayer/worship a couple could make in their vocation?

Nevertheless, it is a good example of why we should all adopt legalish as our new language, lol. No more absolutes! 👍
 
Sr_Sally said:
Please read the Theology of the Body.
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I’m not disputing the idea that the marital act can be considered a renewal of vows,or sanctified,or is sacred – I’m disputing the idea that it is the highest form of prayer for a married couple,or even if it is prayer at all. People pray with their minds,hearts and souls,not while doing their marital obligation. The higher marriage is that of the soul to Jesus Christ.
 
az_4_faith said:
Yes, we are in a fallen state, but that in no way diminishes the original purpose of our sexuality.

The original purpose,I would think,would be procreation.

Our original parents, Adam and Eve, were created in the same physical form that we are this day.

They were created as sexual beings. To say that at their creation, their sexual identity was somehow corrupt or a lesser part of their overall being is to say that God created them corrupt.

I did not say that. I know God did not create them corrupt. They became corrupt through sin.

No, He created them perfectly for each other, in all ways physically, emotionally . . . sexually. Their sexuality was every much a part of them as were all of their other physical characteristics. And it was ALL GOOD.

It was all good,but is no longer.

After the fall, Adam looked at Eve in a different way. No longer satisfied with self-giving sexuality, he looked at her as an object for his own satisfaction, and thusly they covered themselves. We too cover ourselves as a result of our fallen nature, but that was not the way God originally intended for us to be.

But that is how it is.

Human sexuality has been corrupted by mankind since the fall. It can be a grave source of sin, both within and outside the marital covenant, but that isn’t God’s intention and it will never be his intention.

We are not animals. Animals have no self-control. Animal’s sexual reaction is self-serving, not self-giving. When human beings behave LIKE animals sexually, the actions can be sinful. But a human being is capable of self-control, because the mind has power over the body. Humans have the ability to be self-giving and God expects nothing less from us.

That is beside the point. No matter how self-controlled and self-giving we may be,flesh is still flesh and is of no avail,as Jesus said;God is spirit,and as Jesus said,we are to pray to God in spirit. The marital act does not allow for the right frame of mind for prayer to God.

Please read JPII’s Theology of the Body, or Christopher West’s “Theology of the Body for Beginners” or “The Good News about Sex and Marriage”.

We need to bring up these low expectations that we and society have set for ourselves. The world would be a far less chaotic place.
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It is not a matter of low expectations. It is a matter of what is appropriate in regard to communicating with God,distinguishing between fleshly things and spiritual things,and the definition of the word “prayer”.
 
Tonks40 said:
This is how I perceived this notion. The marital embrace SHOULD be holy.

Whether or not it is in each marriage depends on how couples view the act.
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I think modern society has cluttered up sex to be something dirty…something strictly erotic, with no purity involved. It really is a pure act when you think about it, between a married couple.
 
anthony022071 said:
It is not a matter of low expectations. It is a matter of what is appropriate in regard to communicating with God,distinguishing between fleshly things and spiritual things,and the definition of the word “prayer”.
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Anthony, Anthony, Anthony,

You stated earlier that "One does not communicate or commune with God in a state of sexual arousel - that is obscene . . . "

Adam and Eve were never behaving obscenely while engaging in sexual intercourse before the Fall. Everything that they were and did was GOOD.

That was their original purpose. Yes, to procreate, but not as animals, but in a total self-giving and self-expressing love - total gift of self without regard to self.

Despite the fall, we are still called to aspire to that original purpose, not debase it. Sexual relations within marriage are still supposed to be, pardon the term, the “climax” of self giving.

Why, oh why, would you think that sexual intercourse within those parameters would not be pleasing to God - He invented it!
 
anthony022071 said:
Prayer involves communication or communion with God.

One does not communicate or commune with God in a state of sexual arousal – that is obscene. When one prays,it should be in a state of purity of heart and mind,or it should be an act of purification. When engaged in sexual activity,you can’t be giving your heart,mind and soul to God,because you are occupied with
matters of the flesh,and in a state of fleshly gratification.
You can’t spiritualize the physicality of the marital act to the point where you think you are actually praying to God. That is delusional.
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that’s funny i thought that my husband and I were saying “Yes, Lord, we are open to new life, if it be Your will!” That would mean IMHO that we are giving our our heart,mind, body, and souls to God.
 
az_4_faith said:
Anthony, Anthony, Anthony,

You stated earlier that "One does not communicate or commune with God in a state of sexual arousel - that is obscene . . . "

Adam and Eve were never behaving obscenely while engaging in sexual intercourse before the Fall. Everything that they were and did was GOOD.

Of course they were not behaving obscenely before the Fall! – they had not sinned yet and had no cause for shame! But we are not like Adam and Eve before the Fall,nor can we be in this life.

That was their original purpose. Yes, to procreate, but not as animals, but in a total self-giving and self-expressing love - total gift of self without regard to self.

Despite the fall, we are still called to aspire to that original purpose, not debase it.

We can aspire to it,but that does not constitute real prayer.

Sexual relations within marriage are still supposed to be, pardon the term, the “climax” of self giving.

Why, oh why, would you think that sexual intercourse within those parameters would not be pleasing to God - He invented it!
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That is not what I am saying! I know that it is pleasing to God,but it is not therefore to be considered to be real prayer. That is my point,and you are completely missing it.
 
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