Hindu commentary on the Bible released by the Indian Church

[AJV]

I was there at the time when this Bible version was being released and I remember than an announcement was made in the church (as elsewhere in the archdiocese) as well as a write-up in The Examiner encouraging people to buy it. While I don’t really mind the Indian dressed Our Lady or any such aspects of inculturation(there have already been such statues and pictures, in any case) I do remember not being terribly excited by some of the footnotes, even those which do not make a reference to “Indian scriptures”. Especially for the Gospel accounts, they sometimes follow the approach of the modern scholars in de-constructing Biblical text

 

[Derrickdcosta]

Dear Neil
Also I feel that there is fine difference in accepting the rays of truth in other religions and **proclaiming **non Christian religions when the Catholic faith and doctrine is put at a disdavantage, let me also say no reader of the work sees any critique whatsoever of the holy texts presented as one blogger said “they did not dare” criticism is however unfortunately exclusively directed at Scripture some would do a ctrl+ f to find how many times "not to be taken literally " & “not a factual account” turns up. Also sadly enough normal catholics are called fanatics and fundamentalists, by the priests who turn up in the media.
Lastly I messed up the link to Br Prabhu’s lengthy document on the surya namaskar and Gayatri mantra it is here ephesians-511.net/documents/SURYA%20NAMASKAR%20AND%20YOGA.doc
My second apology if I inadvertently hurt your feelings.
His Eminence Oswald Cardinal Gracias is getting a review and response done peraps by the end of September, pray that God gives them the courage to heal the wounds caused.
God bless
Derrick

 

[kiranignatius]

• ‘But in the commentaries, parallels are repeatedly drawn with Hindu deities, Hindu religious texts and mythology; biblical incidents and personalities and Christian philosophies have equals in Hinduism. The impression is forced on the reader that one religion is as good as another. Biblical incidents are downplayed by flippantly commenting that they must not be taken literally. It suggests creation is a story, Eden is a mythical garden ,…’ *

i have a copy of the bible and i’ve been going thro the commentaries. firstly the introduction clarifies that the comment are NOT parallels to non-christian religions.
differences between creation-concepts are also highlighted. so there’s no question of forcing upon the reader that one religion is as good as another.
that creation is a story with similarities to other creation-stories from other cultures is well-known and quite accepted.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Dear Neil
Also I feel that there is fine difference in accepting the rays of truth in other religions and **proclaiming **non Christian religions when the Catholic faith and doctrine is put at a disdavantage, let me also say no reader of the work sees any critique whatsoever of the holy texts presented as one blogger said “they did not dare” criticism is however unfortunately exclusively directed at Scripture some would do a ctrl+ f to find how many times "not to be taken literally " & “not a factual account” turns up. Also sadly enough normal catholics are called fanatics and fundamentalists, by the priests who turn up in the media.
Lastly I messed up the link to Br Prabhu’s lengthy document on the surya namaskar and Gayatri mantra it is here ephesians-511.net/documents/SURYA%20NAMASKAR%20AND%20YOGA.doc
My second apology if I inadvertently hurt your feelings.
His Eminence Oswald Cardinal Gracias is getting a review and response done peraps by the end of September, pray that God gives them the courage to heal the wounds caused.
God bless
Derrick

Hi Derrick,

No, you certainly didn’t insult me or hurt my feelings. I’m just trying to understand why people are offended by this bible.

I think I understand a bit better now. Thanks!

Neil

 

[Derrickdcosta]

Hi Derrick,

No, you certainly didn’t insult me or hurt my feelings. I’m just trying to understand why people are offended by this bible.

I think I understand a bit better now. Thanks!

Neil

Thanks His Eminence is from my childhood parish in Bombay and he is a good man. I thought I’d say that too.
God bless
Derrick

 

[rien]

I work for a large telecom with many Indian workers brought here for IT positions.

Most are Hindu, many Muslim. I’ve only met one Christian Indian here and I know scores Indians now. So clearly Chrtiians are a tiny minority.

It was kind of obvious - his first name is Joseph. Just like I can pretty much tell the Muslim Indians here by their first names.

In any case he comes from a centuries long line of Catholic Indians. He is from Keerela (sp?).

But he had converted to evangelical Christianity shortly before coming to the US. I asked him about this new Bible version. He was not surprised. He told me he and his parents left Catholicism because they were not interested in returning to Hindusim and were upset with the growing blurring occuring in some of the Indian Rites. His family has not been Hindu for 600 years and they saw this as a step backwards.

The Catholic church in India is in trouble he told me. IMO this syncresistic Bible is a sure sigh of it, Catholicsm is stagnant, Growing slower than the population growth. So while increasing in numbers shrinking as a percentage of the population. The one segment of Christianity growing in India are the pentecostals and evangelicals. They offset the Catholic loss but still, he told me, Christianity overall is just staying at pace with the population growth. Unlike Islam which, I won’t get into it here, is growing relatively rapidly as a percentage of the Indian population.

He feels the failure of a Chritian witness in India is largely due to the watering down done by Catholics there and as they are still by a large margin the largest Chrtiian church in India it has really blurred the message of Chrtiianity and made it not so appealing.

He told me Nepal is what India could have been if Catholics had beleived and not watered down and compromised.

 

[kiranignatius]

The Gayatri mantra equivalent in right wing hindu thought to the Islamic Kalima …The Gayatri mantra was not criticised in the commentary to PS. 5 the Holy spirit was however when the Commentator Fr. Raja SJ said the psalm was not to be taken literally and to be understood as OT theology. God bless
Derrick

why should the gayathri manthra be criticised just because it is used by right-wing hindus?

is it the mantra’s fault?

you also found the words “not to be taken literally” offensive?
if you read the commentaries in the new jerusalem bible, you would see that the same things are said in a more dry tone.

---

i found this bible and it’s commentaries excellent and very appropriate for all indian christians.

 

[Dempsey1919]

This new translation should not have been made. The Christian Message should be kept pure and simple. It should not be mixed with pagan religion in any form.

 

[Ahimsa]

This new translation should not have been made. The Christian Message should be kept pure and simple. It should not be mixed with pagan religion in any form.

I guess St. Paul should not have quoted pagan philosophers when evangelizing the Greeks: See Acts 17:28, where Aratus, Phaenomena 5, is paraphrased.

Other pagan references in the N.T.:

Acts 26:14. The phrase “it hurts you to kick against the goad” is a Greek proverb (see Euripides, Bacchae, 794-795).

1 Corinthians 15:33, where Paul quotes Menander, Thais, Frg.218.

Titus 1:12, where Epimenides, De oraculis/peri Chresmon is quoted.

 

[Derrickdcosta]

why should the gayathri manthra be criticised just because it is used by right-wing hindus?

is it the mantra’s fault?

you also found the words “not to be taken literally” offensive?
if you read the commentaries in the new jerusalem bible, you would see that the same things are said in a more dry tone.

---

i found this bible and it’s commentaries excellent and very appropriate for all indian christians.

Dear Kiran
First off apologies if my comments hurt your feelings
I and my family are keen supporters of our priests and Bishops regardless of what impression I may give. I am sure the scholars and translators appreciate your support. My problem is that the Catholic faith is shown in a poor light and again I stress it is my opinion.
The second issue is of course that Christians are forced to recite the Gayatri mantra in rural India and I am in touch with many in Orissa who confirm this. Christians as you may expect sometimes still bravely refuse to do so, SO when the priests and religious do so by way of the commentary it does seem to me both tragic and unfaithful.

MY comment was primarily that Catholic doctrine is given a backseat and criticism is directed at Scripture exclusively. Few people are impressed by this approach, I guess you are.
As you are a reader try to find any place where Early Church Fathers have been quoted (unfortunately they are foreigners) , you will barely find one or two Michael found only one reference, or any other religious text criticised. Yes Catholics need to be aware of Hindu teachings and respect their faith but the forum should in my opinion not be holy scripture, but possibly independent works.
Roberto De Nobili SJ was the founder of the Catholic Ashram approach, to be everything to all people to gain people for Christ. He was in my opinion only moderately successful. St. Francis Xavier, Bl. Joseph Vaz and St John De Britto were in my opinion the more successful missioners.
The modern day catholic ashrams I have visited in India have the least interest in evangelisation. Now the reason I am saying this is that a few of the commentators are catholic ashramites.
Poor Br Michael has succeeded in bringing to the attention of the hierarchy some of the abuses, but serious introspection is required.
ephesians-511.net/article.htm

ephesians-511.net/articles_doc/CATHOLIC%20ASHRAMS%20REPORT_SUMMARY.doc
and ephesians-511.net/articles_doc/CATHOLIC%20ASHRAMS%20REPORT_SUMMARY%20by%20%20MARIA%20LAURA%20PIO,%20SWITZERLAND.doc

As I said this is my opinion and I risk saying that I am wrong and for the future of the Church of India, I would love to go further and pray that I am wrong.
In my view one of the early founders of the Charismatic renewal in India whom I have heard so very often Fr, Fio Mascarenhas SJ quoted in the times speaks so succintly of the issues involved timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/Conservatives_protest_desi_version_of_Bible_/articleshow/3344526.cms “Fr Fio Mascarenhas, chairman of the Catholic Bible Institute, comments on the practice of inculturation, saying , In Pope John Paul II’s Letter To The Churches In Asia, he encouraged the Church to inculturate but he also pointed out that inculturation cannot begin with the liturgy, but it is our daily lifestyle which must first be inculturated (use of vernacular languages, cultural customs) and only then be prudently introduced into some aspects of the liturgy. If, however, our lifestyle and mindset is Western-oriented then it is meaningless to try to inculturate the liturgy. I think that the several attempts at inculturation in this Bible are unfortunate and out of place.”

My ignorance does not permit me to add anymore to this but let me again state and stress my opinion - I believe forced incultration is denial of the rights of God first and foremost because the fullness of salvation and true doctrine is only given to the Church. We must ofcourse respect and love people of other religions and of course the truths that may be found in their scripture and witness.

Second incultration should be in our lifestyle first not our faith, third attempts at inculturation should come from the people, and lastly inculturation should not be confused with Brahmanisation and Hinduisation of the Church.

I apologise again if I hurt your feelings. I am grateful to God that he has given you an appreciation of the work, and pray that you grow strong in faith
God bless
Derrick

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Hi,
I hope you don’t mind me asking you some more questions to try to understand your concerns better:

The second issue is of course that Christians are forced to recite the Gayatri mantra in rural India and I am in touch with many in Orissa who confirm this. Christians as you may expect sometimes still bravely refuse to do so, SO when the priests and religious do so by way of the commentary it does seem to me both tragic and unfaithful.

So, do you think that including quotes from the Gayatri mantra in a footnote, that the publishers and writers of the footnote are praying and reciting it? Or giving it the honor that is given to it by Hindu believers when they recite it?

Do you think the authors intend to encourage Christians to recite the Gayatri mantra?

MY comment was primarily that Catholic doctrine is given a backseat and criticism is directed at Scripture exclusively.

Do you interpret this as meaning that the authors see Christian scripture as being full of mistakes, while Hindu scripture is perfect?

Sincerely,
Neil

 

[Derrickdcosta]

Hi,
Do you interpret this as meaning that the authors see Christian scripture as being full of mistakes, while Hindu scripture is perfect?

Sincerely,
Neil

Dear Neil
You are utterly wonderful, that is precisely what I and a lot of people feel and it is not of course the entire reason of my individual criticism.

By no means I represent the entire spectrum of protests. And of course what saddens me is that there is a tacit acceptance of all these occult thoughts by a total and absolute absence of criticism.

Undoubtedly all saints refer to profane authors, philosophers, in fact I have been typing up a catholic book making reference to Pythagoras, Seneca, Socrates, Diogenes amongst others, but the context of the authors was utterly Christian, and utterly Catholic to be even more specific. Further, these quotations did not put forth their hymns to Sybil and Venus, and these quotations were totally outweighed by the quotations of the Fathers, Doctors and Confessors of the Church. There is difference between philosophy and occult worship which is not the case with the NCB.

In the NCB there is only one reference to St. Cyril of Alexandria with no other references made to any works of Eastern Church or Western Church fathers.
It is my belief that the saints and fathers belong to the Christian Commonwealth and their commentaries should have been used, while few Indian Christians are ignorant about Hinduism most of them are about the wonderful works of St. Jerome, St. Cyril, St Augustine etc and etc. This was the opportunity that was missed to show the Catholic faith in the light of its full strength and splendour of truth.

As you may have guessed looking at my posts I dislike injustice and here I feel it is done to my faith. It is a real pity I cannot share with CAF the wonderful letters from lay people and even from Bishops in India. Perhaps Br. M. Prabhu will put it on his site soon.
God bless
Derrick

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Dear Neil
You are utterly wonderful, that is precisely what I and a lot of people feel and it is not of course the entire reason of my individual criticism.

Hi,
The way I see this publication of the bible is that the footnotes do two things:

1. Try to show how Christianity parallels the major religions of India
2. Explain the scripture using the historical-critical method

Notice that since the purpose of 1 is not to explain the Hindu scriptures, there is no need to use historical-critical method on the Hindu scripture, or to go into great depth on their meaning. I think that explains why the Hindu scripture doesn’t get ‘criticized’ - people reading the footnotes don’t care enough about Hindu scripture to spend the time learning about it in such depth. They’re just quoting it to show parallels.

Number 2 (historical-critical method) is annoying for conservatives around the world. The comments of the New American Bible use the historical-critical method like that too. Unfortunately these are the conclusions of modern scripture scholars. I don’t think the NAB comments refer to Church Fathers at all, that I’ve noticed!

 

[Derrickdcosta]

Hi,
The way I see this publication of the bible is that the footnotes do two things:

1. Try to show how Christianity parallels the major religions of India
2. Explain the scripture using the historical-critical method

Notice that since the purpose of 1 is not to explain the Hindu scriptures, there is no need to use historical-critical method on the Hindu scripture, or to go into great depth on their meaning. I think that explains why the Hindu scripture doesn’t get ‘criticized’ - people reading the footnotes don’t care enough about Hindu scripture to spend the time learning about it in such depth. They’re just quoting it to show parallels.

Number 2 (historical-critical method) is annoying for conservatives around the world. The comments of the New American Bible use the historical-critical method like that too. Unfortunately these are the conclusions of modern scripture scholars. I don’t think the NAB comments refer to Church Fathers at all, that I’ve noticed!

Thanks for your comments Neil. The problem being the witness the Church must give in a pluralistic society. I do understand the basics of the critical method used. But I find it highly distasteful that Scripture is singled out for criticism.
No one even intimated us before our purchase in the launching ceremony that Non - Christian scriptures would be used as a comparison tool, and this with an absence of a catholic context as earlier detailed. Neither are the Hindus impressed-
If I could link with the Hindu fundamentalist sites you would note the titles used
{"Christian Missionaries Take Aim At India - Deceptive Bible & Other Questionable Tactics
Posted on August 10, 2008 by sathyasaibaba
sathyasaibaba.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/christian-missionaries-take-aim-at-india-deceptive-bible-other-questionable-tactics/
conversionagenda.blogspot.com/2008/07/indianised-version-of-bible-hit-among.html
SANGH PARIVAR BLOG
sanghparivar.org/blog/rkm/indianised-version-of-bible-hit-among-christians
Indianised version of Bible hit among Christians
Wed, 07/16/2008 - 14:12 — rkm
“Indianised” Bible Released
hinduism.suite101.com/
hinduism.suite101.com/blog.cfm/indianised_bible_released

The Catholic administration in India has released The New Community Bible with an Indianised presentation. This has angered both Christians and Hindus. }

So what irritates is perhaps the forced incultration as well as the condescending attitude, perhaps for the Hindu’s also the expropriation of their holy texts. If it offends both Catholics and Hindus I wonder why it was so aggressively promoted. There must be better ways of getting rid of colonial baggage while being faithful to Our Lord.
Let us wait for the Church to finish its process of scrutiny.
God bless
Derrick

 

[kiranignatius]

*Let us wait for the Church to finish its process of scrutiny. *

but i thought the bishop of bombay has already given the imprimatur.
wouldn’t he have done it after a process of scrutiny?

there are no doctrinal errors , for sure…

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Maybe this is why the Catholic church in India is stagnant and shrinking as a percentage of the population. While evangelicals Chritians who don’t dilute the Chritian messages are growing - it is only because of evangelicals that Chritians remain a constant percentage of the Indian population…

Where are your statistics for the stagnation of Catholic numbers?

To my way of thinking, the growth of Evangelicalism could very well be the precursor to the growth of Catholicism. Evangelicals do very routinely become Catholic once they get deep in history. It isn’t all a one way street out of the Catholic Church.