Hindu Polytheism

[Philomath]

I think we are digressing from the OP on whether Hindus are polytheists or monotheists. This current discussion is about whether Hinduism can comply with Christian definitions of the Trinity. Perhaps, IgnatianPhilo can start a separate thread on this subject.

Hinduism own “trinity” does not comply with the Christian definitions of the Trinity nor does it care to.

To return to the OP, can any Hindu (or anyone else) explain why Brahma is hardly ever worshipped in Hinduism? I have learnt a lot from this thread and it would be a shame to let it go.

Brahma isn’t worshiped as much mostly because of mythological stories found in the Puranas. One of these stories involving Lord Shiva chopping off Brahma’s fifth head for ‘unholy’ behavior. Lord Shiva cursed Brahma and said that people should not worship him. Another view though is that t Brahma’s role as the creator is over. The only active forces now are Vishnu who is preserving the world and Shiva who will later come to destroy it and continue cosmic reincarnation.

 

[openmind77]

I won’t grant trinity to them or to what you are claiming, I need to see it. Who can provide the primary source which this comes from? Go on and google and find the first website that claims it but thats all you can do.

I am not quite sure what kind of source you are looking for, but there is a wiki page you can look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti (and there are references at the bottom).

Murti just means idol, so when the three Gods are shown in one idol (with three heads) it is called Trimurti.

Personally, I believe the Hindu Trinity is exactly equivalent to the Christian one:

Shiva - Destroyer/Transformer - equivalent to the Father
Vishnu - Sustainer/Preserver - equivalent to the Son
Brahma - Creator - equivalent to the Holy Spirit

Vishnu incarnates in human form periodically - the two most important incarnations are Rama and Krishna.

The differences between the two religions (and other religions as well) will be reconciled soon when the Christ returns.

Christians maybe quite surprised by what the Christ has to say about other religions and beliefs when He returns.

Depending on his teachings this time around, all religions will have to make some adjustments to their beliefs and dogmas - some more than others.

 

[jimkhong]

Brahma isn’t worshiped as much mostly because of mythological stories found in the Puranas. One of these stories involving Lord Shiva chopping off Brahma’s fifth head for ‘unholy’ behavior. Lord Shiva cursed Brahma and said that people should not worship him. Another view though is that t Brahma’s role as the creator is over. The only active forces now are Vishnu who is preserving the world and Shiva who will later come to destroy it and continue cosmic reincarnation.

Thanks Philomath. Is that why we don’t get many people named Brahma? While there are plenty named Siva and Vishnu (or Ganesh, etc for that matter)

 

[Servant19]

To return to the OP, can any Hindu (or anyone else) explain why Brahma is hardly ever worshipped in Hinduism? I have learnt a lot from this thread and it would be a shame to let it go.

Here you go Jim

This is why:

“Though You [Brahman] are the Absolute, indivisible and eternal, understood only by intuition, adored by saints, though I know and speak of that form of yours, yet I always turn back from it and spend my love on the Absolute made man *!”

• Bhagavata Purana, vol.1, 3:6.*

At the same time, Krishna, who is the Absolute made man is certainly worthy of worship and I think He has become the object of worship for many over time:

The foolish deride me when I am clad in a human body; they know not My supreme nature, that I am the great Lord of all being.

• Bhagavad Gita

Friends you can find a wonderful exploration of this subject in Moojan Momen’s scholarly work here:
(it is an exploration of Hinduism and the Baha’i Faith, but I really believe there is a lot to be gleaned for genuine seekers of all religious backgrounds:

bahai-library.com/momen_hinduism_bahai

please click on the section entitled Darshana which explores all the questions asked in this thread very well…

.

 

[jimkhong]

Though You [Brahman] are the Absolute, indivisible and eternal, understood only by intuition, adored by saints, though I know and speak of that form of yours, yet I always turn back from it and spend my love on the Absolute made man !".

Thanks, so, is Brahman considered to be worshipped through his avatars?

 

[Servant19]

Thanks, so, is Brahman considered to be worshipped through his avatars?

I believe so dear friend…

There are comparable verses in ALL global religions who claim a Divine Being…

.

 

[jimkhong]

I believe so dear friend…

There are comparable verses in ALL global religions who claim a Divine Being…

.

So, are all men considered to be his avatars? If so, could that explain why I don’t meet Hindu boys called Brahman while there are plenty of Vishnus and Sivas?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I am not quite sure what kind of source you are looking for, but there is a wiki page you can look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti (and there are references at the bottom).

Murti just means idol, so when the three Gods are shown in one idol (with three heads) it is called Trimurti.

Personally, I believe the Hindu Trinity is exactly equivalent to the Christian one:

Shiva - Destroyer/Transformer - equivalent to the Father
Vishnu - Sustainer/Preserver - equivalent to the Son
Brahma - Creator - equivalent to the Holy Spirit

Vishnu incarnates in human form periodically - the two most important incarnations are Rama and Krishna.

The differences between the two religions (and other religions as well) will be reconciled soon when the Christ returns.

Christians maybe quite surprised by what the Christ has to say about other religions and beliefs when He returns.

Depending on his teachings this time around, all religions will have to make some adjustments to their beliefs and dogmas - some more than others.

I would need to see it demonstrated from early hindu texts that they used similar ideas to that of the trinity as Christians have received it. Its all well and good to look at this and say “Trinity” from a perspective which is late but it is irresponsible to do so when the exact source of this timhutri is unknown and never referenced.

 

[Servant19]

So, are all men considered to be his avatars? If so, could that explain why I don’t meet Hindu boys called Brahman while there are plenty of Vishnus and Sivas?

Thats not my understanding dear friend. All men are not Avatars. Brahman manifests Himself in the form of an Avatar from “age to age”

***"Whenever there is a decline in righteousness, O Bharat, and the rise of irreligion, it is then that I send forth My spirit.

For the salvation of the good, the destruction of the wicked, and for firmly establishing true religion (Dharma), I manifest myself from age to age"***

• Bhagavad Gita 4:7-8.

.

 

[openmind77]

I would need to see it demonstrated from early hindu texts that they used similar ideas to that of the trinity as Christians have received it. Its all well and good to look at this and say “Trinity” from a perspective which is late but it is irresponsible to do so when the exact source of this timhutri is unknown and never referenced.

I am not sure if you (or I) can read early Hindu texts, but the Trimurti is supposed to date back to the Vedas/Upanishads (maybe 1000-800 BC) and became established as a standard concept in the Puranas (around 500 BC).This page newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Trimurti has a section on the evolution of the concept, to quote from it:

It was not until the arrival of the Puranas, a large corpus of mythical and historical Hindu texts, that the Trimuti became a standard doctrine. The Padma-Purana, a Vaishnava text, explains the origin of the three modalities of the one supreme Vishnu: “In order to form this world, the supreme spirit produced from his right side Brahma. In order to maintain the world, he created from his left side Vishnu. To destroy it he gave rise to Shiva from his middle. Some men worship Brahma, others Vishnu, and yet others Shiva. Since these three are one, the devout should draw no distinction between them.” This is the first explicit statement of the three gods’ essential oneness as constituents of the supreme principle. However, it should be noted that at no time was the trinity itself actually worshiped.

 

[Philomath]

Thats not my understanding dear friend. All men are not Avatars. Brahman manifests Himself in the form of an Avatar from “age to age”

Only Vaishnava’s believe in Avatars all Hindu’s do not. Shavites do not nor do I. Also you’ve confusded Brahman with Brahma.

 

[Philomath]

Thanks Philomath. Is that why we don’t get many people named Brahma? While there are plenty named Siva and Vishnu (or Ganesh, etc for that matter)

That’s probably the most likely reason.

 

[jimkhong]

Thats not my understanding dear friend. All men are not Avatars. Brahman manifests Himself in the form of an Avatar from “age to age”

.

Ok, why then haven’t I met anyone named Brahman. There must very few of them around.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I am not sure if you (or I) can read early Hindu texts, but the Trimurti is supposed to date back to the Vedas/Upanishads (maybe 1000-800 BC) and became established as a standard concept in the Puranas (around 500 BC).This page newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Trimurti has a section on the evolution of the concept, to quote from it:

“In order to form this world, the supreme spirit produced from his right side Brahma. In order to maintain the world, he created from his left side Vishnu. To destroy it he gave rise to Shiva from his middle. Some men worship Brahma, others Vishnu, and yet others Shiva. Since these three are one, the devout should draw no distinction between them.”

And what does the oneness mean? What does it mean to draw no distinction between them? I could just as easily interpret this as modalism or as the mormons do to mean one in effort, all working towards the same goal (whatever that might be). It is a vague phrase from which I do not think it appropiate to call it “trinity.”

Also, what is the name of this specific text? When is it dated from?

 

[Servant19]

Ok, why then haven’t I met anyone named Brahman. There must very few of them around.

I’m not sure I understand you here Jim

Would you mind clarifying why you would expect people to be called Brahman?

 

[jimkhong]

I’m not sure I understand you here Jim

Would you mind clarifying why you would expect people to be called Brahman?

I have friends named Vishnu and know many Sivas but no Brahman or Brahma.

 

[Servant19]

I have friends named Vishnu and know many Sivas but no Brahman or Brahma.

Yes, but what’s that got to do with Brahman manifesting Himself from age to age?

.

 

[openmind77]

“In order to form this world, the supreme spirit produced from his right side Brahma. In order to maintain the world, he created from his left side Vishnu. To destroy it he gave rise to Shiva from his middle. Some men worship Brahma, others Vishnu, and yet others Shiva. Since these three are one, the devout should draw no distinction between them.”

And what does the oneness mean? What does it mean to draw no distinction between them? I could just as easily interpret this as modalism or as the mormons do to mean one in effort, all working towards the same goal (whatever that might be). It is a vague phrase from which I do not think it appropiate to call it “trinity.”

Also, what is the name of this specific text? When is it dated from?

The Puranas are multiple texts (I think the one they are quoting is probably the Vishnu Purana) estimated to be dated around 500 BC but were still being added to for 1000 years after that.

The only reason it is called a Trinity is because there are three of them, you can call it a Triad if you prefer.

By not drawing a distinction, I think the text means that it is not important which one you prefer to worship - anyone is OK. Otherwise they are definitely distinct Gods - each has their own separate temples dedicated to them and each has his own festivals that are celebrated (although Brahma probably does not have any).

Vishnu is the God who incarnates as a human being from age to age (rather like the Son).

 

[openmind77]

I have friends named Vishnu and know many Sivas but no Brahman or Brahma.

If you search LinkedIn, you will find a few with the name Brahma, not that many. The name as well as the God are just not that popular.

Brahman however is a non-person, a neuter noun (almost like a substance) - it can not be used as a person’s name.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The Puranas are multiple texts (I think the one they are quoting is probably the Vishnu Purana) estimated to be dated around 500 BC but were still being added to for 1000 years after that.

The only reason it is called a Trinity is because there are three of them, you can call it a Triad if you prefer.

By not drawing a distinction, I think the text means that it is not important which one you prefer to worship - anyone is OK. Otherwise they are definitely distinct Gods - each has their own separate temples dedicated to them and each has his own festivals that are celebrated (although Brahma probably does not have any).

Vishnu is the God who incarnates as a human being from age to age (rather like the Son).

For me it is an issue of refuting those who claim the trinity in a non judaic religion and hence I am very critical in calling such a thing trinity when it does have a meaning which is often confused for just a basic and bland concept of “three in one,” whatever that means. The trinity is so much more than that, so much more than three gods or whatever being together, it explicit in that they are of the exact same substance yet distinction is to be made between the persons and to neglect one is in essence to neglect the other two persons.

Anyway, if thats all settled i’ll take my leave.