Hindu Polytheism

[gmx2014]

To what extent is Hindu genuinely polytheistic vs. multiple forms of a single deity or godhead or spirit? Is this a matter of variance or individual conscience or is it a monotheistic reinterpretation?

The western pagans (e.g. Egyptian, Greek and Roman), for example, were clearly polytheistic. There was no sense in which any one god was an incarnation of another.

By contrast, Christinity teaches a “mysterious” three persons but one God theology.

There are so many Gods, I think there is no formal, total count. But there is only ONE God, Most High (which is YHWH).

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

From IgnatianPhilo:
Primary source of hindu text please. I have heard this claim time and again and no one can point to the text this supposebly comes from. The way it is written is far too close to the trinity which leads me to think this is a modern interpretation based on a text. So please provide the references, do what muslims, pagans, jews, unitarians and etc cannot do.

Good Afternoon IgnatianPhilo: References to the Trimurti are found throughout Hindu texts, but the origins are in a work called the Rig Veda, where God in three forms was established in writing. I say established in writing, because much of Hindu tradition was maintained in the form of careful recitation by holy men until such a time as they were actually written down. Such was also the case with the Upanishads and the Mahābhārata. The Mahābhārata is the epic from which the Bhagavad Gita comes. The Bhagavad Gita is one of the texts of the Mahābhārata, and is largely considered by westerners to be the Hindu equivalent of the Bible. I say widely held by westerners to be such, because Hindus for the most part could care less about creating a nexus between their religion and any other religion, so the task of finding a common reference is left up to westerners. Texts such as the Gita are totally reliant on the idea of the Trimurti as a tenet of their significance. For instance, the Gita is the story of Krishna and his friend Arjuna. Krishna is an Avatar (human incarnation) of the second member of the Trimurti, who is Vishnu. So what you have firmly established in the Bhagavad Gita is the second person of the Hindu Trinity (Vishnu) taking human form for the benefit of humankind, which of course is another similarity between Hinduism and Christianity. And while the authorship of the Gita is widely thought to be roughly contemporaneous with the New Testament (ranging from 300 years prior to 200 years after the New Testament) the cult of Krishna is documented by Greek visitors to the Indian sub continent some 500 years before Christ, and held in oral tradition much earlier than that.

Ideas about trinities or gods in human form are a clearly not a Christian novelty, however, I do not see the tenets of Christianity threatened by any of that. Further, it is impossible to surmise whether the ideas are borrowed or if God simply likes to create different venues on roughly the same themes. The fractal nature of the temporal world suggests that He likes to create diversities from common templates, for instance atoms, planets, solar systems and the like all act in common ways whether at a micro level or macro level, but from basic structures and elements, endless permutations are made possible.

 

[jimkhong]

If you search LinkedIn, you will find a few with the name Brahma, not that many. The name as well as the God are just not that popular.

Brahman however is a non-person, a neuter noun (almost like a substance) - it can not be used as a person’s name.

Noted on Brahman - English transliterations are often not exact and I have often come accross Brahman as an alternative spelling for the Creator-God.

Just found it strange that the Creator God is not worshipped. I take it that it is because his job is done but it sounds so transactional to me. Vishnu and Siva are worshipped because of what they can do for the petitioner but poor Brahma is left out because he has nothing left to offer.. Shouldn’t you at least thank him everyday for what he has done? We Christians constantly thank God for his Creation.

 

[openmind77]

Noted on Brahman - English transliterations are often not exact and I have often come accross Brahman as an alternative spelling for the Creator-God.

Just found it strange that the Creator God is not worshipped. I take it that it is because his job is done but it sounds so transactional to me. Vishnu and Siva are worshipped because of what they can do for the petitioner but poor Brahma is left out because he has nothing left to offer.. Shouldn’t you at least thank him everyday for what he has done? We Christians constantly thank God for his Creation.

Apart from the various myths, here is my take on the reason why Brahma is not worshiped (most Hindus would probably disagree):

After Brahma creates the Universe, he basically animates his Creation with his own spirit and is present everywhere within it.

Creation is represented by the Goddess/Mother, so instead of worshiping Brahma, we now worship the Goddess (three main ones). So Goddess worship replaces the worship of Brahma in Time and Space.

In all species, it is the Mother who creates or gives birth - she does indeed represent the Creator

 

[jimkhong]

Apart from the various myths, here is my take on the reason why Brahma is not worshiped (most Hindus would probably disagree):

After Brahma creates the Universe, he basically animates his Creation with his own spirit and is present everywhere within it.

Creation is represented by the Goddess/Mother, so instead of worshiping Brahma, we now worship the Goddess (three main ones). So Goddess worship replaces the worship of Brahma in Time and Space.

In all species, it is the Mother who creates or gives birth - she does indeed represent the Creator

Not sure I understand this. Isn’t it a question of roles? The Goddesses all have different roles, none of which relates to the act of Creation itself. So, how do you worship the Creator-God and thank him for his Creation directly - not sending him a thank-you card via his representative Goddess?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Noted on Brahman - English transliterations are often not exact and I have often come accross Brahman as an alternative spelling for the Creator-God.

Just found it strange that the Creator God is not worshipped. I take it that it is because his job is done but it sounds so transactional to me. Vishnu and Siva are worshipped because of what they can do for the petitioner but poor Brahma is left out because he has nothing left to offer.. Shouldn’t you at least thank him everyday for what he has done? We Christians constantly thank God for his Creation.

Good Evening JimKhong: My understanding has been that it’s a rather nuanced difference between the Abrahamic idea of a God and His creations as separate entities with separate souls and the Hindi idea of God. In Hindu thought, the Gods of the Trimurti are simply manifestations of the Purushottama, which is the one great soul that is the core of every being. It follows then, if you worship one thing, you worship all things.

Also, it is worthy of note that there is no direct correlation in Hinduism to the Christian idea of petitioning God for this outcome or that. The world does what it does, and happiness is not a product of external events, which are there simply for the purpose of experience. What God helps the Hindu to do is to transcend the events of this world and the search for happiness that is dependent on good fortune, or events that agree with our likes and dislikes. The fully spiritually achieved Hindu is the same in victory as in defeat, present in illness or in health and fully immersed in the moment, whatever the moment brings. It isn’t considered good form to ask God to intervene, because the realization of the God within oneself is attended by the realization that God’s handiwork on earth is the responsibility of those who come to know that they are He, and the events in our lives are the result of our own karma and sanskara. They have to be played out and worked through. If one is poor in this life, we will be wealthy in another, or healthy in this life, sickly in another. All comes to pass in accordance with our developmental needs, stage of growth, and our position within the very long story of our existence that involves many lives.

I hope I have stated this in a way that makes sense.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[jimkhong]

Also, it is worthy of note that there is no direct correlation in Hinduism to the Christian idea of petitioning God for this outcome or that. The world does what it does, and happiness is not a product of external events, which are there simply for the purpose of experience. What God helps the Hindu to do is to transcend the events of this world and the search for happiness that is dependent on good fortune, or events that agree with our likes and dislikes. The fully spiritually achieved Hindu is the same in victory as in defeat, present in illness or in health and fully immersed in the moment, whatever the moment brings. It isn’t considered good form to ask God to intervene, because the realization of the God within oneself is attended by the realization that God’s handiwork on earth is the responsibility of those who come to know that they are He.

True, but that is certainly not the practice among the more common folks who are not swamis. Ever seen Hindu temples in Asia, with lottery tickets under idols (we have some under our church statues as well) - I often wonder whether people will return to pick them up after they win. Hinduism is not monolithic - practices of the folk religion differs substantially from the educated classes. You can be sure most Hindus petition God for something or other - reality is often different from theology.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

jimkhong;11661685] Ever seen Hindu temples in Asia, with lottery tickets under idols (we have some under our church statues as well) - I often wonder whether people will return to pick them up after they win.

Thank you JimKhong: No, I have never seen that, but it sounds hilarious, and I don’t doubt it.

Hinduism is not monolithic - practices of the folk religion differs substantially from the educated classes. You can be sure most Hindus petition God for something or other - reality is often different from theology.

Yes, reality is certainly different from theology. Not being a Hindu, I can only account for what their scriptures say, and in truth I don’t have the foggiest notion about what they do in reality. For the most part, I’m pretty busy trying to keep an eye on what I’m doing in reality, and that’s something of a challenge in itself.

 

[openmind77]

Thank you JimKhong: No, I have never seen that, but it sounds hilarious, and I don’t doubt it.

Yes, reality is certainly different from theology. Not being a Hindu, I can only account for what their scriptures say, and in truth I don’t have the foggiest notion about what they do in reality. For the most part, I’m pretty busy trying to keep an eye on what I’m doing in reality, and that’s something of a challenge in itself.

There is definitely asking/petitioning God for material stuff among Hindus. One practice is to ask God for something and then promise to do something in return. For instance, if God grants me a son (this is something women often ask), I will go on a pilgrimage to such and such etc.

 

[openmind77]

Noted on Brahman - English transliterations are often not exact and I have often come accross Brahman as an alternative spelling for the Creator-God.

Just found it strange that the Creator God is not worshipped. I take it that it is because his job is done but it sounds so transactional to me. Vishnu and Siva are worshipped because of what they can do for the petitioner but poor Brahma is left out because he has nothing left to offer.. Shouldn’t you at least thank him everyday for what he has done? We Christians constantly thank God for his Creation.

As I said in one of my posts earlier Brahma in the Hindu Trinity corresponds to the Holy Spirit in the Christian Trinity.

I am not sure Christians spend a lot of time worshiping or thanking the Holy Spirit do they? (One problem maybe that the role of the Holy Spirit in creation may not be adequately understood).

 

[jimkhong]

As I said in one of my posts earlier Brahma in the Hindu Trinity corresponds to the Holy Spirit in the Christian Trinity.

I am not sure Christians spend a lot of time worshiping or thanking the Holy Spirit do they? (One problem maybe that the role of the Holy Spirit in creation may not be adequately understood).

Actually, that’s an excellent point though I am not sure if the Holy Spirit is the Christian counterpart of Brahma since the understanding of the Trinity is different and so is the understanding of the nature of God’s ephiphany.

The Holy Spirit is actually quite well worshipped in Christianity, especially among the Charismatic movement - both within mainstream Catholic, Protestant & even Orthodox churches as well as the independent Pentecostal churches. It is constantly invoked in the liturgy & the Gospel readings with Pentecost as its main ‘feastday’. Its gifts are celebrated in Western sacrament of confirmation.

Still, I agree that the Holy Spirit is the poor cousin in the Trinity. In Catholic-Protestant polemics, it is said that the Catholic Trinity is Father-Son-Mother Mary while the Protestant Trinity is Father-Son-Holy Bible. It is always the poor Holy Spirit that gets dropped.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

There is definitely asking/petitioning God for material stuff among Hindus. One practice is to ask God for something and then promise to do something in return. For instance, if God grants me a son (this is something women often ask), I will go on a pilgrimage to such and such etc.

I think there are a lot of things that happen under the larger umbrella of Hindu practices that have more to do with culture and tradition than with any particular theology.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

There is definitely asking/petitioning God for material stuff among Hindus. One practice is to ask God for something and then promise to do something in return. For instance, if God grants me a son (this is something women often ask), I will go on a pilgrimage to such and such etc.

That is absolutely not unique to Hinduism. You will find that in Christianity and it’s quite common in pre-Christian western paganism. And, with all due respect to those who believe otherwise, I think it is the origin of religion, one of the most primitive and enduring aspects of it. Christianity, after all, is founded on the Hebrew covenants with God and the New Testament is the New Covenant.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Good Afternoon IgnatianPhilo: References to the Trimurti are found throughout Hindu texts, but the origins are in a work called the Rig Veda, where God in three forms was established in writing. I say established in writing, because much of Hindu tradition was maintained in the form of careful recitation by holy men until such a time as they were actually written down. Such was also the case with the Upanishads and the Mahābhārata. The Mahābhārata is the epic from which the Bhagavad Gita comes. The Bhagavad Gita is one of the texts of the Mahābhārata, and is largely considered by westerners to be the Hindu equivalent of the Bible. I say widely held by westerners to be such, because Hindus for the most part could care less about creating a nexus between their religion and any other religion, so the task of finding a common reference is left up to westerners. Texts such as the Gita are totally reliant on the idea of the Trimurti as a tenet of their significance. For instance, the Gita is the story of Krishna and his friend Arjuna. Krishna is an Avatar (human incarnation) of the second member of the Trimurti, who is Vishnu. So what you have firmly established in the Bhagavad Gita is the second person of the Hindu Trinity (Vishnu) taking human form for the benefit of humankind, which of course is another similarity between Hinduism and Christianity. And while the authorship of the Gita is widely thought to be roughly contemporaneous with the New Testament (ranging from 300 years prior to 200 years after the New Testament) the cult of Krishna is documented by Greek visitors to the Indian sub continent some 500 years before Christ, and held in oral tradition much earlier than that.

Ideas about trinities or gods in human form are a clearly not a Christian novelty, however, I do not see the tenets of Christianity threatened by any of that. Further, it is impossible to surmise whether the ideas are borrowed or if God simply likes to create different venues on roughly the same themes. The fractal nature of the temporal world suggests that He likes to create diversities from common templates, for instance atoms, planets, solar systems and the like all act in common ways whether at a micro level or macro level, but from basic structures and elements, endless permutations are made possible.

Provide the primary material that outlines a specific doctrine of there being One substance of divinity in which three persons co equal, eternal and all powerful exist in communion. There is an actual definition to the trinity beyond three in one, a vague concept which has no meaning at all unless you go on to talk about it. I have only seen one quote given and that quote was vague and could be interpreted in many different ways. I can’t believe catholics are so bent on denying the trinity its proper Christian origin, that it was defined in responce to those who denied the son being God equal in substance with the father. That the trinity is a unique doctrine. So provide the verses which show a clear and decisive definition of the trintiy as we see it defined by Christians in later centuries. I’m tired of asking for this and only receiving a statement like; “Your just wrong, Its three in one together therefore it is trinity.”

Can any Catholic please do what the atheists and the pagans and the jews and Unitarians cannot do and prove a pre Christian trinity? Or will they rely on their arguments which reference nothing and only make the bold proclomation “THE TRINITY IS NOT EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN.”

You have to do more than just read an ancient text and super impose your ideology on to it.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Provide the primary material that outlines a specific doctrine of there being One substance of divinity in which three persons co equal, eternal and all powerful exist in communion. There is an actual definition to the trinity beyond three in one, a vague concept which has no meaning at all unless you go on to talk about it. I have only seen one quote given and that quote was vague and could be interpreted in many different ways. I can’t believe catholics are so bent on denying the trinity its proper Christian origin, that it was defined in responce to those who denied the son being God equal in substance with the father. That the trinity is a unique doctrine. So provide the verses which show a clear and decisive definition of the trintiy as we see it defined by Christians in later centuries. I’m tired of asking for this and only receiving a statement like; “Your just wrong, Its three in one together therefore it is trinity.”

Can any Catholic please do what the atheists and the pagans and the jews and Unitarians cannot do and prove a pre Christian trinity? Or will they rely on their arguments which reference nothing and only make the bold proclomation “THE TRINITY IS NOT EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN.”

You have to do more than just read an ancient text and super impose your ideology on to it.

Good morning IgnatianPhilo: The Hindu Trimurti is a Trinitarian concept that predates Christianity. There are dissimilarities as well as similarities. I have listed some of texts you asked for in my last post to you, and you should take the time to read them. You also have a search engine on your computer if you would like to find material that refutes or confirms it any of it. God Incarnate is also an idea that predates Christianity, and this is firmly established in the same texts, but to this I will add The Upanishads as a source. You can read those as well.

The Oneness of the Hindu Trimurti is simply rooted in the fact that in Hinduism, there is oneness in being throughout all of creation, not just the with Trimurti. In this religious tradition, God is the core of all beings, and therein lies the primary difference between what many Christians believe to be their faith and what Hindus believe to be theirs, however, it is a rather profound difference.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[openmind77]

Provide the primary material that outlines a specific doctrine of there being One substance of divinity in which three persons co equal, eternal and all powerful exist in communion. There is an actual definition to the trinity beyond three in one, a vague concept which has no meaning at all unless you go on to talk about it. I have only seen one quote given and that quote was vague and could be interpreted in many different ways. I can’t believe catholics are so bent on denying the trinity its proper Christian origin, that it was defined in responce to those who denied the son being God equal in substance with the father. That the trinity is a unique doctrine. So provide the verses which show a clear and decisive definition of the trintiy as we see it defined by Christians in later centuries. I’m tired of asking for this and only receiving a statement like; “Your just wrong, Its three in one together therefore it is trinity.”

Can any Catholic please do what the atheists and the pagans and the jews and Unitarians cannot do and prove a pre Christian trinity? Or will they rely on their arguments which reference nothing and only make the bold proclomation “THE TRINITY IS NOT EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN.”

You have to do more than just read an ancient text and super impose your ideology on to it.

Actually in this sense the Hindu Trinity is not like the Christian Trinity at all - the three Gods are not considered equal by everyone (some may do so) - there is a dispute among various Hindu sects about which is the Supreme one among the three.

They are also not quite eternal - at the end of Universe (MahaPralaya), Brahma dies, Vishnu goes to sleep and I am not quite sure what happens to Shiva. I personally believe that all three including the whole Universe gets absorbed back into Brahman and nothing remains until the birth of a new Universe. At this time Shiva again becomes active, Narayana awakens and a new Brahma is born who then creates the Universe.

Also nowhere does it say that the three are of the same substance, although all three are considered to be immortal Gods.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Good morning IgnatianPhilo: The Hindu Trimurti is a Trinitarian concept that predates Christianity. There are dissimilarities as well as similarities. I have listed some of texts you asked for in my last post to you, and you should take the time to read them. You also have a search engine on your computer if you would like to find material that refutes or confirms it any of it. God Incarnate is also an idea that predates Christianity, and this is firmly established in the same texts, but to this I will add The Upanishads as a source. You can read those as well.

The Oneness of the Hindu Trimurti is simply rooted in the fact that in Hinduism, there is oneness in being throughout all of creation, not just the with Trimurti. In this religious tradition, God is the core of all beings, and therein lies the primary difference between what many Christians believe to be their faith and what Hindus believe to be theirs, however, it is a rather profound difference.

Thanks,
Gary

I am not going to scour through hindu texts to find proof of a subject you say is absolutely there. You need to provide the references to the text itself. I don’t let the atheists and skeptics get away with not providing references so I won’t let Christians get away with it either.

 

[eddie_too]

what significance difference does it make that non-christian religions may have had trinitarian and incarnational aspects prior to the coming of Jesus?

i am reading a lot of comments about this, but no one has effectively written why such a discussion has value.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Actually in this sense the Hindu Trinity is not like the Christian Trinity at all - the three Gods are not considered equal by everyone (some may do so) - there is a dispute among various Hindu sects about which is the Supreme one among the three.

They are also not quite eternal - at the end of Universe (MahaPralaya), Brahma dies, Vishnu goes to sleep and I am not quite sure what happens to Shiva. I personally believe that all three including the whole Universe gets absorbed back into Brahman and nothing remains until the birth of a new Universe. At this time Shiva again becomes active, Narayana awakens and a new Brahma is born who then creates the Universe.

Also nowhere does it say that the three are of the same substance, although all three are considered to be immortal Gods.

How interesting in that this contradicts everything that the catholics, who have said there is a hindu trinity, have been saying. Still I would prefer the sources themselves to that of a modern hindu’s idea concerning them if only for the sake of seeing the idea in its non developed and simplistic form.

Not that your view or perspective is bad or anything, but I get the feeling what some have done is look at what seems to me more akin to a triad, a group of Gods and have confused it for the trinitarian doctrine which has been very well defined in Christianity.

 

[openmind77]

How interesting in that this contradicts everything that the catholics, who have said there is a hindu trinity, have been saying. Still I would prefer the sources themselves to that of a modern hindu’s idea concerning them if only for the sake of seeing the idea in its non developed and simplistic form.

Not that your view or perspective is bad or anything, but I get the feeling what some have done is look at what seems to me more akin to a triad, a group of Gods and have confused it for the trinitarian doctrine which has been very well defined in Christianity.

It is not just a group of three Gods - they are the main uncreated Gods. Everything else in the universe is created by or through them. So the many other Gods as well as Goddesses that Hinduism has, have all been created these three. The three Gods are:

• Shiva - the Destroyer/Transformer
• Vishnu - the Sustainer/Preserver
• Brahma - the Creator

The main similarity between the Hindu Trinity and the Christian one is mainly in the case of Vishnu (the second of the Trinity) who periodically incarnates as a human on earth.

The other two are actually also similar although it may not seem so from Christian literature - I personally believe that Christianity has not understood the role of the Father or the Holy Spirit that well