"According to some scholars like Parrinder, Oduyoye, Vroom and Sheth, the common translation “incarnation” due to its christological implications is somewhat misleading as the concept of avatar corresponds more closely to the view of Docetism in Christian theology, as different from the idea of God ‘in the flesh’ in mainstream Christology.[9][10][11]
It’s mentioned in many of Hinduism’s sacred scriptures, it appears only a minority reject it’s existence. Even if it’s temporary, the idea of the Lord Yama (a Hindu deity) pouring boiling oil on your head isn’t exactly pleasant. Interestingly enough, Yama Loka, which is the abode of Lord Yama, is more of a purgatorium than Naraka.
Well, when I think of all the factors that go into religion, being able to call God “mom” seems rather trite, in my opinion. And Christians have always recognized that since God is absolutely simple, He has no gender.
It is true there is a difference between Creator and creature, but at the same time, “completely separate” seems rather strong. The Soul in a state of sanctifying grace is so unified to God that the Bible says it has partook in the Divine Nature. We can never achieve the union that Christ possesses in His hypostatic union, but at the same time, we can bridge the transcendent gap between finite creature, and infinite Creator. And this union is perfected in the hereafter.
Actually, Sheth argues against the idea that “the concept of avatar corresponds more closely to the view of Docetism”.
…like “papa” or “abba”?
Ahimsa, that was exactly my reaction. It has been so commonly said by Christians that “God has no gender, therefore HE…” that it’s almost banal. It’s the by-product of the patriarchal cultures of both ancient Judaism and its offspring, Christianity.…like “papa” or “abba”?
Christ lived for the benefit of humankind. He lives still. He died and rose again to show you that in fact nothing ever dies. Why then do you focus so much on His death? He lives. As for the other Avatars, they lived for your benefit as well. As for the remission of sin, we would see a much deeper meaning in that, but I have explained this meaning before. In lieu of me repeating all that again, perhaps I could ask you a question instead. In your opinion, why do you suppose that God needed a messy and bloody human sacrifice to atone for what happened in a world He Himself created (including the free will feature), and in so doing, knew not only the probabilities, but the particulars in regard to the outcomes? Why the sacrifice? Can He not do as He likes? I think He had a much bigger meaning. What do you think that might be?
Very true, but they have also shown not only a willingness, but a proclivity to kill for Him as well. Die for Him, kill for Him - none of this (at least in my thinking) has any bearing on the truth of His message. It only means that people still don’t “get” Him. That aside, the truth of His message doesn’t conflict with the truth of the messages of other Avatars. In truth, no one dies for Jesus. One one kills for Jesus. They die and kill because of the ignorance of people.
The only lie is the belief that one can die for something. In fact. nothing can die, nor can anything be lost of it’s creator. They can only change form. What you are is infinite, sacred and part of the whole. You have no beginning and you have no end. These instruments of sentient measurement that we become attached to, they die and go on to form other things. You do not.
Agreed.
I admire that.
Hi Lee: Each of them provided a path to God. Your understanding of the path that Jesus offered and the understanding that a Hindu would have of that would be different in small but profound ways.
I certainly agree, however, my point was that a willingness to die for what one perceives to be the truth has no bearing on the veracity of that truth. It doesn’t mean that they were wrong, but it doesn’t prove the ideas of beliefs they died for. People die all the time because of misunderstandings. No doubt they also die for truths. I just don’t see it as pertinent to the point, but I will certainly allow for the possibility that I’ve misunderstood.
Again, I am confronted with a curious preoccupation with death that pervades Christian thought, when the business we are about is life. This death you keep talking about is just the cessation of a body. That is not what you are. You are infinitely more than that. It is perhaps because of this understanding that these people you speak of were able to make such sacrifices. That would certainly be a logic I can follow.
Why not try the Bhagavad-Gita As It Is? Is the english translated Vedas and the true Science of GOD.
Hi Lee. You know, I had the same issue at first. It’s not all that obvious. What you do is:
Hi Lee: Krishna didn’t just teach either. He was an active participant in the human drama. As for exclusive claims of being the way, Jesus is only exclusive when viewed through the lens of Abrahamic thought. Krishna said the same things about Himself as Jesus, but is more explicit. He says:
I understand the Christian understanding of the nature of sin.
Their willingness to die is both noble and indicative of a great capacity for love.
The death of one thing makes possible the creation of another. It is indeed part of the natural order of things. It is the perennial nature of the cosmos long before humankind came onto the scene. These worlds that we become entangled in are expressions of what we are. They are not what we truly are. What Jesus truly was never died. What you truly are cannot die either. Nothing can take that from you.
You and I have experienced countless births and deaths, yet we have not in essence died, nor will we die. It is a mistake to confuse our inmost beings with these bodies that we are temporarily using. They are just instruments of sentient measurement. Don’t let that instrument convince you that it is something unto itself.
God is not male or female, and God is both male and female. God is revealed in every being and every creation. In this woman, in that man, in the thief and the saint. God is feeding the poor and God is holding up a convenience store. God’s expressions are infinite and the activities in God’s drama are without number or end.
Very true, but I see Sonny’s point. I know many Christians who think that God is in a male human body somewhere walking around holding celestial court. When I feel the touch of God, it feels female in nature. I have wondered if this is why so many people are devoted to Mary. They feel God in the feminine. Others may connect with God in a masculine sense. I suppose there is a reason for one person’s perception being one way and another’s being another. It probably has something to do with samskara.
The Christian can see the sayings of Krishna and see “Wisdom Personified,” and ultimately fulfilled in the Person of Christ. This is also how we may take the personifications of wisdom found in the Torah (The Old Testament), as in Proverbs chapter 8. The truth and wisdom to be found in Hinduism and elsewhere is ultimately fulfilled in Christ and His Church. I will again state - Krishna did not die for my sins and rise for my justification. Only Christ, through His death and resurrection, has opened up the way for humanity to be set free from its bondage to sin and death, and given hope of future glory in the fullness of the presence of God - if we will only as individuals receive it and avail ourselves of it
Can I ask what it is you agree with or disagree with about it?
That is right.
There is a way out of the cycle of death, and that is through sharing in the resurrection of Christ. Here indeed we experience the reality of death - in our own lives, that of our loved ones, that of our neighbors. But beyond death lies a place and a state most blessed where we will no more die, if only we live in the Lord Jesus Christ, and “share in His sufferings that we may also share in His glory.” Romans 8:17 “For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,” Romans 6:5
Your friend
My pleasure Lee. I found those to be a bit of a challenge as well.
That is very true, however, the messages and the mission are not profoundly different. I have to think that God took into account the “wiring of the minds” involved in the various peoples He visited. Having spent most of my life at an intersection between eastern and western thought, I do see profound differences between the two in the way things are viewed. I cannot say if it’s because of conditioning, life experience or a combination of things, but I am sure God sees those differences as well and took them into account.
Again, we are having trouble relating differences in orientation. Both Jesus and Krishna came to free humankind from sin. The problem for westerners to grasp is twofold in gaining an understanding of the eastern view of this. First, we see a very different meaning when we speak of the concept of sin. That is the subject of an entire Jungian length essay, but the bubblegum wrapper version is that the original sin is the illusion caused by sentient experience of separateness. The inability to see that all of creation emanate from a singularity, and that each seemingly separate entity is merely
Again, I would see that message as being the same. The difference is that I sense that Christians feel that they are going to be united at some point with Christ or God. Hindus believe that we are already united with God, part, parcel and whole. The problem is our inability to perceive it. That is the original sin as well as the enabler to all other sin. Freeing you from sin that was the message of the Eucharist. It was a vehicle by which humankind could gain some small grasp of our essential oneness. I do not think it was about passing Jesus through your digestive system. I am convinced (as would any Hindu who is versed in both Hindu and Christian writings) that it was about a very important “awakening” to a fundamental truth that is by nature lost upon the human psyche. Yes you are indeed eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus. One hundred percent true. But this is only an inroad to a much bigger reality.
I agree with you 100 percent Lee.
A problem I see with this view is that it makes God the author of evil. You mentioned in a reply to someone else in this thread that you believe it is God who does good and who does evil through the actions of people in this life (that he is the one feeding the hungry, or holding up the guy at the store, etc.). In contrast, Christianity teaches that “in Him there is no darkness” and that “he who does what is right is righteous, as He is righteous,” while “he who sins is of the devil,” and “anyone who claims to live in Him must walk as He also walked.” There really is no hope if indeed God is the author of evil as well as good! How can one hunger for righteousness and thirst for righteousness if God Himself is not righteous?! But thankfully, as Jesus taught, “Blessed are they who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.” There is a way out of sin, and there is One and One alone who can help us get free from it - and in Him there is no evil, but only goodness.
The original sin was the willful choice of mankind to separate itself from God through setting itself up as God - to define for itself what is good and what is evil. One can retreat into the dark and cold of a cave. That will not stop the sun from shining, but it will hide its light and its heat from you. That is what one does when he rejects God and chooses a life of sin.
There’s a lot of truth to this - it does proclaim a message of Oneness, for God’s purpose in it is “to reconcile to himself all things.” It is in Christ, in being set free from sin and made righteous, in being brought from death to life (for the wages of sin is death), that humanity can be made whole and one again - “For by Your death and resurrection You have set us free - You are the Savior of the world,” as the Eucharistic prayer proclaims.
The Eucharist is unique in that through it we do experience the greatest reality - that of Christ and His love. That is what made me Catholic - recognizing the closeness and intimacy of Christ in this sacrament. I like how the Catholic author J.R.R. Tolkien put it - “Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament… There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth…” Just a partial quotation from a letter to his son, but it is right on.