Historic French churches face demolition

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Duesenberg

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This is so terribly sad. Such beautiful edifices! I suppose this is to be expected of evermore secular countries like France, but it doesn’t make it any less horrific:

"The French government appropriated all church property in 1907 - including the cost of maintaining them. Increasing numbers of local authorities cannot or will not renovate their churches, as some face demolition…


Historic French churches face demolition
 
It is very, very expensive to repair/maintain steeples and other items on ancient church buildings.

It isn’t like the Church just sent someone out to Home Depot and it was just a matter of bolting them into place.

Here in Pittsburgh, the 1st Baptist Church repaired their steeple 4 or 5 years ago, it cost $1 million and they were able to do it only with the help of local historical preservationists. That was just for a single steeple.
 
Maybe they should do what the Los Angeles diocese did with their old cathedral, turn it into a wedding venue! With the amount of times people marry and remarry, they are sure to keep the books in the black. (I am being sarcastic.)

Sacred no more.
https://www.wedding-spot.com/venue/127/Vibiana/
 
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Casilda said:
Maybe they should do what the Los Angeles diocese did with their old cathedral, turn it into a wedding venue! With the amount of times people marry and remarry, they are sure to keep the books in the black. (I am being sarcastic.)

Sacred no more.
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Yeah, the former St. Vib’s – now “VIBIANA” is both a sad and a very happy story. Sad that Mahony did not retain it.

Happy in that the developer retained as much of the historical detail as he could (the archdiocese stripped a lot out of the interior of the building) and because of the remarkable renaissance that has taken place in that area of town.

It used to be a very gritty part of skid row. Now a new, huge Cal-Trans office building is located across the street LAPD’s new headquarters building is kitty-corner and the rest of the area is now gentrifying.
 
If I’m not mistaken, those churches belong to and are cared for by the Church of England. Though a state church, the CofE doesn’t receive any direct financing from the government.

France’s situation is different, as all churches of a certain age belong to the government as cultural patrimony. As a result, it is up to the government to decide the fate of edifices they no longer wish to pay to maintain. I wish it were not this way, but it is what it is.
 
UpUpAndAway said:
If I’m not mistaken, those churches belong to and are cared for by the Church of England. Though a state church, the CofE doesn’t receive any direct financing from the government.
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So? Whether it’s the state or CofE, they are being taken care of in England.
UpUpAndAway said:
France’s situation is different, as all churches of a certain age belong to the government as cultural patrimony. As a result, it is up to the government to decide the fate of edifices they no longer wish to pay to maintain. I wish it were not this way, but it is what it is.
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Shame on France.
 
Duesenberg said:
So? Whether it’s the state or CofE, they are being taken care of in England.
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I’m not denying that, only explaining why it is. The English churches in question are owned by the CofE, which has a vested interest in keeping them in good working order as churches.

The French government views the churches under their care as buildings just like any other. To it, there is no difference between a 14th century church and, for example, a 14th century castle. It does not care if the churches it owns function as houses of worship or not. If maintenance on a given church is too much of a drain on the budget, it allows the property to fall into ruin, sells it, or destroys it. Shame on France indeed.
 
UpUpAndAway said:
I’m not denying that, only explaining why it is. The English churches in question are owned by the CofE, which has a vested interest in keeping them in good working order as churches.
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The French gov’t took on a vested interest when they confiscated the buildings.
UpUpAndAway said:
The French government views the churches under their care as buildings just like any other. To it, there is no difference between a 14th century church and, for example, a 14th century castle. It does not care if the churches it owns function as houses of worship or not. If maintenance on a given church is too much of a drain on the budget, it allows the property to fall into ruin, sells it, or destroys it. Shame on France indeed.
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Yeah, and that’s just wrong. Then again to a large degree this wouldn’t happen in say the US. Only something like 5% of France’s Catholic populace attend Sunday Mass – a truly disquieting number. Given that level of apathy, the gov’t can pretty do as it wishes, it appears.
 
Duesenberg said:
The French gov’t took on a vested interest when they confiscated the buildings.
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To keep the structures in good condition, yes. To keep them operational as churches? One could argue that they don’t have an interest in that and that they legally can’t, since church and state in France are constitutionally separate…which is not the case in the US, where the separation is de facto.

I share your distress, but our mutual outrage + 50¢ will get us on the proverbial bus. The only entity that could potentially influence the government’s decisions on the fate of these properties is the Catholic Church itself, but it lacks public backing and funds. My parish is three times larger than the last parish I belonged to before I left the US, yet its annual budget is one-fifth the amount. The Archdiocese takes in fewer direct donations and runs at a deeper deficit every year - and this issue is but one of many it faces. If there’s a satisfactory resolution to the problem of French churches facing demolition, I don’t know what it is nor do I have the authority to order the Archbishop to implement it.
 
My rust belt, American diocese is shrinking rapidly. We don’t have real old churches, by Europe standards, but many 100 to 150 year old, very historic ethnic churches. Even after closing a third of our parishes in recent decades, we still have far too many parishes in the central city, exactly where most of the historic buildings are.

Some huge church buildings were sold to tiny Baptist congregations, or to would-be small developers, which could not maintain them. Some confessionals and pulpits wound up in local restaurants. Others were sold to evangelical congregations that successfully maintained them, as an outreach. But there are far more churches than healthy Protestant congregations looking for a bigger building.

One building was sold to an Orthodox parish, which immediately sold it to the SSPX. Another was bought by a foundation which got preservation funds and turned it into a public charter school. A few were sold to Muslims, and a couple to Buddhists(!).

The diocese tried to close one church (huge and beautiful). A local group hired canon lawyers, who got the Vatican to postpone this in canonical courts; but now the diocese can close it according to Vatican. The building needs about 10 Million in repairs. The congregation had about 50 people coming to Mass before the building was closed. As much as I love that building, it would be a scandal to put that much money into it, rather than spending it on outreach to youth and young adults throughout the diocese.

Somehow, one historic church building gets government preservation funds to help pay part of the exterior costs of repairs, even though the building is still used as a church. I am not sure how, given our separation of church and state. I suppose the towers are part of the public skyline, and as long as the money does not directly finance the worship space interior, it is ok. I am sure it is “historic preservation” listed site.
 
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I have recently had a desire to restore old churches that have been left abandoned in parts of Europe. I have a fascination with old buildings in general, but old churches are far more beautiful to me. I think of them as little gems left in the dirt.

I would rather restore the old beautiful churches than build new ones…some modern churches I find are lacking in the architectural sense.
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See what happens when the faith is rejected? Methinks few have been truly paying attention.
 
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commenter said:
Even after closing a third of our parishes in recent decades, we still have far too many parishes in the central city, exactly where most of the historic buildings are.
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Here in Pittsburgh, the Diocese has gotten rid of a lot of church buildings due to shrinking and changing populations. We’ve seen them repurposed as bars and restaurants, as housing, as a mausoleum, as schools, as a movie set, as well as a few being sold to protestant congregations. If anyone is interested, a couple of church and school buildings are for sale in the ultra-trendy Lawrenceville neighborhood. The neighbors are a bit temperamental however. The residential developer’s ideas for the vacant Holy Family school and church building were vetoed by the zoning board at the urging of local busy bodies, even though its been vacant for 8 years.
 
Changing demographics. Wow… Lawrenceville is now trendy? Somewhat different Pittsburgh than I left.

OTOH, the very popular Protestant Crystal Cathedral was bought by the Catholic Church and is now Christ’s Cathedral, so it cuts both ways, I guess.
 
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Augustinian said:
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commenter:
Even after closing a third of our parishes in recent decades, we still have far too many parishes in the central city, exactly where most of the historic buildings are.
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Here in Pittsburgh, the Diocese has gotten rid of a lot of church buildings due to shrinking and changing populations. We’ve seen them repurposed as bars and restaurants, as housing, as a mausoleum, as schools, as a movie set, as well as a few being sold to protestant congregations. If anyone is interested, a couple of church and school buildings are for sale in the ultra-trendy Lawrenceville neighborhood. The neighbors are a bit temperamental however. The residential developer’s ideas for the vacant Holy Family school and church building were vetoed by the zoning board at the urging of local busy bodies, even though its been vacant for 8 years.
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It is true that some historic churches were trash-renovated by liberals a few decades ago. It is also true some historic churches (and other wonderful buildings) still apparently in good condition were demolished perhaps needlessly decades ago. That being said, each diocese has to make a balance between preserving our architectural heritage, and evangelism.

We have many historic churches built to hold 800 or so people, where there are fewer than 100 total weekend attendance. I love to visit those churches, which people are demanding the diocese subsidize forever, rather than close. But in the outer suburbs there are parishes with a few thousand in attendance on weekend, one or two overstressed priests and huge numbers of youth and young adults with almost no connection to the Church.

Many people leave bequests to “Old St. Mary’s preservation campaign” in their will, but nobody leaves a bequest to the “Catholic drop-in Center at the Shopping Mall”, because no such thing has ever been tried. In most cases, the people who go to the historic churches do not live in those poor neighborhoods, but in the suburbs.

Reaching out to young adults takes at least one full time priest, and money, but that is one part of our “historic heritage” we have neglected lately.
 
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The Church of England does maintain a great many historic churches, however, most are in a constant state of disrepair, many have been closed and many more are under threat, some are now dual purpose buildings. Maintenance is usually only possible due to grants from various groups/societies or legacies. A diocese may assist to maintain churches of particular significance.
Sadly, the Catholic Church has also closed some Victorian era churches.

Believe me there are many Catholic clergy who wouldn’t want those churches back as the maintence costs are so great and there’s little that can be done with them due to preservation orders.

It’s so sad to see any of these churches go (from an era when churches really were built to the glory of God) especially when compared to the vast majority of modern monstrosities which date very quickly and are an embarrassment.
 
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