Historical accuracy of the gospel of John

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tomdstone
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You do know that Catholic doctrine says the priest acts in persona Christi? That it is Jesus himself who acts through the priest?
Does God respond to our prayers? I think you have to say yes, at least in some cases, God will respond to the prayers of humans. He will do this for example, by reducing the time of a loved one spent in Purgatory. This is one of the applications of Indulgences.
Further, the priest has free will and he willingly and freely says the prayers of Consecration, Jesus as God acts through the priest when the priest freely and willingly says these prayers. So God responds to the prayers of the priest. Even if my explanation on the Mass is not technically accurate, nevertheless, IMHO it is true that God may respond to the prayers of the faithful when the faithful apply indulgences gained on earth to a suffering soul in Purgatory.
I am reluctant to extend this conversation further on this thread, because it may be off the topic of thread which is the gospel of John, but I am willing to discuss this further on another appropriate thread. Thank you.
 
Does God respond to our prayers? I think you have to say yes, at least in some cases, God will respond to the prayers of humans. He will do this for example, by reducing the time of a loved one spent in Purgatory. This is one of the applications of Indulgences.
Further, the priest has free will and he willingly and freely says the prayers of Consecration, Jesus as God acts through the priest when the priest freely and willingly says these prayers. So God responds to the prayers of the priest. Even if my explanation on the Mass is not technically accurate, nevertheless, IMHO it is true that God may respond to the prayers of the faithful when the faithful apply indulgences gained on earth to a suffering soul in Purgatory.
I am reluctant to extend this conversation further on this thread, because it may be off the topic of thread which is the gospel of John, but I am willing to discuss this further on another appropriate thread. Thank you.
Jesus is acting in the Consecration at that moment.
 
John says that his gospel is true. Speaking of himself, he writes:

“It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true.” --John 21:24
 
John says that his gospel is true. Speaking of himself, he writes:

“It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true.” --John 21:24
Do you think it would be easy to remember the details of something that happened 65 years ago? Generally speaking, would you trust a witness who testified to an event that occurred 65 years ago or would you think that it would be normal for there to be some errors in her testimony? The Houston Police department can’t remember shootings that happened four years ago. If they can’t remember things that happened four years ago, how could you expect them to remember something that happened 65 years ago?
houstonpress.com/news/officials-can-t-remember-the-last-time-hpd-saw-an-unjustified-shooting-here-s-why-8280136
 
Do you think it would be easy to remember the details of something that happened 65 years ago? Generally speaking, would you trust a witness who testified to an event that occurred 65 years ago or would you think that it would be normal for there to be some errors in her testimony? The Houston Police department can’t remember shootings that happened four years ago. If they can’t remember things that happened four years ago, how could you expect them to remember something that happened 65 years ago?
houstonpress.com/news/officials-can-t-remember-the-last-time-hpd-saw-an-unjustified-shooting-here-s-why-8280136
You are forgetting one important detail. John didn’t experience these events and then all of the sudden 65 years later write down what happened from memory. Throughout these 65 years he taught what happened over and over to different groups of people. So by these standards:

Officer John was present at the shooting and witnessed what had happened to the greatest of detail. The events of this shooting were of such great importance that he was reassigned to the academy to teach future recruits what had happened. For the next 30 years he taught the recruits the details of the shooting. When it came time to retire he was asked to write a book so future generations could learn from the shooting.

So would the book be an accurate retelling?

After 30 years of teaching others I think Officer John could write that book in his sleep.
 
Do you think it would be easy to remember the details of something that happened 65 years ago? Generally speaking, would you trust a witness who testified to an event that occurred 65 years ago or would you think that it would be normal for there to be some errors in her testimony?
If i had a life changing encounter with God and told everyone i met about it, every day for 65 years, then yes i think i would remember very clearly. Especially if i had surrounded myself with a community of people who constantly wanted to know information, re-clarify what i had said and asked me to continually explain the events that happened. This is very different than being asked to remember some undefined isolated happening for a court case 65 years later,

To say John’s gospel was written 65 years later is self-serving speculation IMHO.For nothing to be written down by John and the Christian community regarding John’s testimony for such a long time is not really credible.

I will post this again. It goes through all the reasons why some scholars say John’s gospel was written late and then addresses each of them clearly and intelligently.

Reconsidering the date for the gospel of John.
 
I just ruminated on this thread’s title: “Historical accuracy of the gospel of John.”

Here’s a thing to remember: we should throw away our modern definition of ‘history’ when it comes to John’s gospel. Sure, just as I noted earlier, John’s gospel probably has the most verisimilitude of the four gospels. In that respect, John is ‘historical’ (or at least ‘historically-authentic / plausible’) in the modern sense.

But then again, another thing about the gospel is that the voice of the author is not clearly distinguishable from the voice of Jesus or even from John the Baptist. All three of them speak in the same voice, so that it’s hard to tell precisely where Jesus’ or John the Baptist’s actual, ‘historical’ speech ends and where John the Evangelist’s ruminations begins. This is especially true if you consider how the original gospel would have been written: without any quotation marks or any kind of punctuation. (John 3 is a prime example of this phenomenon. Is John 3:16-17 supposed to be Jesus’ actual words to Nicodemus? Or is it actually the narrator speaking? We can’t tell, because the flow is smooth.)

A modern historian looking at this would (and did) accuse John the Evangelist of ‘putting words into Jesus’ mouth’. For someone who is only interested in the dry, bare facts, John has so buried whatever ‘historical’ there is into layers and layers of theology and reflection. The assumption is that only the ‘historical’ core is good and of any worth; the rest are to be rejected and cast away as worthless garbage.

But John would not have seen it that way; and for that matter, I believe we Christians shouldn’t either. I think the key to understanding his gospel is in chapter 16:

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit, who will teach the disciples everything and “guide [them] into all the truth.” We know the disciples and the early Christians believed that the risen Jesus still continued to be in touch with them via the Spirit (the Ascension simply ‘removed Him from their sight’ - it’s not like after the Ascension Jesus no longer had anything for His disciples!); the Spirit of Jesus continued to teach them, to reveal things to them that they never saw while Jesus was still with them in the flesh.

That’s why I really like to view John as the story of Jesus as filtered through John looking back with the gift of hindsight / the revelation of the Spirit. John wasn’t telling just ‘the bare facts’, nor is he interested in that. His story of Jesus, you might say, transcends ‘history’ and ‘fact’. He’s not so much a ‘reporter’ as he was a ‘storyteller’ and an ‘evangelist’.

In fact, it doesn’t take a scholar to see this. Let’s say for example John’s story of the cleansing of the Temple. Were John just reporting the ‘facts’, we should expect the story to simply go on like this:

In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there.
And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.”
So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?”
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”

No fuss - just a dry report about ‘what happened’. Something that’ll make modern Westerners happy. But that’s not how John writes. Instead:

In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there.
And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.
And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.”
His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.”
So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?”
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”
But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Did Jesus really make those long speeches? Did He really speak those discourses as written word-for-word historically? I’ll be frank. Without any time machine or video footage, we can’t 100% say “yes.” For all we know, the speeches could have been a great deal shorter historically. 😃 But then again, we could say that John’s purpose is not so much to jot down what Jesus would have actually said word-for-word as if he’s writing a script or news report, but the deeper meaning behind those words that John (thanks to the Holy Spirit) had now realized. Just because John would not have transcribed those discourses as Jesus spoke them historically that doesn’t make the contents “false;” if anything, now that the deeper meaning behind them is revealed I’d say it makes them more ‘true’.
 
This is part of a post I made a while ago. This might be relevant in a way to the topic.

The human mind doesn’t work like a video recorder that plays back an exact replica of events remembered, contrary to popular belief. Memories are actually reconstructed like a puzzle rather than played back like a video each time we recall them. And inevitably there’s going to be some ‘rearrangement’ along the way; some bits are lost, and some ‘foreign’ bits - which properly don’t ‘belong’ there - will be added. In fact, as per some studies, you’re lucky if even 50% of your memories actually represent exactly what happened. Some people will use expressions like, “I remember clearly that…” or “I remember it just like yesterday,” but those actually aren’t completely true. Inevitably one’s ‘memory’ of a given event is just our mind’s reconstruction of bits and pieces, filtered through our current state. Because our view of the world is constantly changing everyday, our minds don’t reconstruct those memories perfectly. Some people have exceptional memories and can ‘reconstruct’ things better than others, but even their recollections fall short of 100%. There’s even the idea of our brains implanting 'false memories. That may kinda sound distressing to some people, but that’s just how our brain works; nothing wrong there, since there’s nothing we can do.

In other words, do not blame John if his memory of Jesus is ‘contaminated’ / ‘enriched’ (depending on your POV) with the knowledge and revelation that he had received during all those years in between. He’s not a robot nor a tape recorder; he was a living human being.
 
Back in the 19th century, it used to be the case that John’s gospel was dismissed as the ‘unhistorical’ gospel when compared to the more down-to-earth synoptics. Reason for this being the complex theology of the gospel and its portrait of a Jesus who makes long speeches and overtly claims divinity. It was given lip service as the ‘mystic’, ‘theological’ gospel, but practically, many historical Jesus scholars generally did not take it seriously as a historical source.

Nowadays however there’s a reappraisal of the gospel that’s going on in certain segments; AFAIK there’s a slowly-growing acknowledgement that the earlier casual dismissal of John may have been a case of throwing the baby with the bathwater. Some scholars point out that when you look closely at John’s gospel, you’d notice that beyond all that deep theology and long speeches that put all the earlier academics off, the gospel actually has more historical verisimilitude and internal consistency when you compare it to the supposedly ‘more historically-accurate’ Mark or any other of the two synoptics.

(Now it’s not that earlier scholars did not see these ‘historical’ bits: some did see them, however they were puzzled as to why these ‘historical’ elements were mixed in with theological reflections and long discourses, with the seams being kind of visible. They kind of excoriated John for that: they accused him of not being able to write, of ‘spoiling’ the history by adding in things, of being a simpleton, even of being senile. You see, they were not kind, these 19th century people.)

John, for instance, is the only gospel that has a consistent, linear timeline - unlike the episodic synoptics which sort of jump all over the place and seem to be arranged artificially. In addition, John’s knowledge and representation of the topography in Judaea, especially around Jerusalem and the political situation there is apparently more superior and more ‘real’ than that of the synoptics. (For example, the Pool of Bethesda in John 5 - John’s gospel is our only ancient source that mentions the place, which to some people back in the 19th century meant that the pool did not really exist. It turns out that such a pool did exist in 1st century Jerusalem.)

In fact, when it comes to details about Jesus’ passion - His arrest, the hearing before the high priest, the day of Jesus’ crucifixion - John’s version of the events seems to be the more historically plausible.

One scholar even said that is more easier to fit the synoptics into John’s narrative framework than it is for John to be fitted into the synoptics.
I always figured, that since the Gospel of John’s author (whom I believe to be John) claimed that he was an eyewitness to the events (John 21:24)
 
In the gospel of John we find Jesus saying things that are not found in the other three gospels:
Before Abraham came to be, I am.
The Father and I are one.
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.
All that belongs to the Father is mine.
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

But we don’t find these quotes in the other three gospels, Mark, Matthew or Luke, which were written much earlier than the gospel of John. The gospel of John was written about 60 years after the death of Jesus. Why is his gospel so much different from the other three gospels which were written earlier and is this an indication that the gospel of John may not be historically accurate? What is the source of the gospel of John other than an oral tradition which was handed down from year to year ?
The Gospel of John was written by:
  1. John the Apostle or
  2. John the Presbyter (a disciple of John the Apostle).
So, either way, the gospel has apostolic credentials just as Mark has the authority of Peter. However, the case for the Apostle is strong. J. Warner Wallace, a former atheist and cold-case detective with the LAPD, cited blogger Max Andrews who laid out the case as seen in the following excerpt:

The Circumstantial Case for John’s Authorship
coldcasechristianity.com/2013/the-circumstantial-case-for-johns-authorship/


  1. *]The author identified himself as “the disciple whom Jesus loved” (21:20, 24), a prominent figure in the Johannine narrative (13:23; 19:26; 20:2; 21:7, 20).

    *]The author used the first person in 1:14, “we have seen his glory,” revealing that he was an eyewitness to the accounts contained in his Gospel.

    *]The “we” of 1:14 refers to the same people as does 2:11, Jesus’ disciples. Thus, the writer was an apostle, an eyewitness, and a disciple of Jesus.

    *]Since the author never referred to himself by name, he cannot be any of the named disciples at the Last Supper: Judas Iscariot (13:2, 26–27), Peter (13:6–9), Thomas (14:5), Philip (14:8–9), or Judas the son of James (14:22).

    *]The disciple that Jesus loved is also one of the seven mentioned in the last chapter: “Simon Peter, Thomas (called ‘Twin’), Nathanael from Cana of Galilee, Zebedee’s sons, and two other of his disciples” (21:2; see 21:7).

    *]Peter and Thomas have already been eliminated. Nathanael is also ruled out as a possible author since the author remains unnamed in John’s Gospel.

    *]The author must be either one of “Zebedee’s [two] sons” or one of the “two other of [Jesus’] disciples.”

    *]Of the two sons of Zebedee, James and John, James can safely be ruled out since he was martyred in the year 42 (see Acts 12:2).

    *]This leaves John the son of Zebedee as the probably author of the Gospel. Irenaeus (c. 130–200): “John the disciple of the Lord, who leaned back on his breast, published the Gospel while he was a resident at Ephesus in Asia” (Against Heresies 3.1.2).

    Well done. Circumstantial cases are not built on a singular piece of direct evidence. Instead, they are assembled from a collection of reasonable inferences. In our state of California, jurors are instructed, “If a witness testifies he saw it raining outside before he came into the courthouse, that testimony is direct evidence that it was raining.” In essence, this testimony (if it is trustworthy) is enough, in and of itself, to prove that it is raining. But you can also conclude it’s raining on the basis of circumstantial evidence. Jurors are also instructed, “For example, if a witness testifies that he saw someone come inside wearing a raincoat covered with drops of water, that testimony is circumstantial evidence because it may support a conclusion that it was raining outside.”

    Max [Andrews] has done a good job of assembling facts [above] that reasonably demonstrate the Apostle John is the author of the fourth gospel. Is the available evidence “complete”? No, but I’ve never worked a case where every piece of possible piece of evidence was available for consideration. While potentially incomplete, the case for John’s authorship is none-the-less sufficient. It’s reasonable. It’s reliable. It meets the standard I’m most concerned about: beyond a reasonable doubt."

    Taken from:

    The Circumstantial Case For John’s Authorship
    coldcasechristianity.com/2013/the-circumstantial-case-for-johns-authorship/
 
I always figured, that since the Gospel of John’s author (whom I believe to be John) claimed that he was an eyewitness to the events (John 21:24)
There’s a recent scholar named Richard Bauckham (The Testimony of the Beloved Disciple: Narrative, History, and Theology in the Gospel of John and Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony) who tries to make the case that not only is John’s gospel written by an eyewitness, the gospel would have also been in the ancient world considered to be good historiography, even more ‘historical’ than the synoptics are.

Now, Bauckham does not believe the “beloved disciple” to be John son of Zebedee. Instead, he believes him to be John the Elder/Presbyter (the man who was one of Papias’ sources), who in his scenario was originally a close disciple of Jesus who was not exactly part of the Twelve, but who lived in Jerusalem - therefore explaining his knowledge of the city and its goings-on, as well as his being known to the high priest (John 18:16) - and was probably the owner of the Upper Room where the Last Supper was held.

He thinks that this gospel was not circulated anonymously - the attribution to a “John” existed since the beginning. It was therefore inevitable that this more obscure John came to be identified with the more famous John son of Zebedee. For Bauckham, the confusion was not surprising; both Johns were associated with Ephesus - which he p(name removed by moderator)oints as the gospel’s place of origin - after all.
 
There’s a recent scholar named Richard Bauckham (The Testimony of the Beloved Disciple: Narrative, History, and Theology in the Gospel of John and Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony) who tries to make the case that not only is John’s gospel written by an eyewitness, the gospel would have also been in the ancient world considered to be good historiography, even more ‘historical’ than the synoptics are.

Now, Bauckham does not believe the “beloved disciple” to be John son of Zebedee. Instead, he believes him to be John the Elder/Presbyter (the man who was one of Papias’ sources), who in his scenario was originally a close disciple of Jesus who was not exactly part of the Twelve, but who lived in Jerusalem - therefore explaining his knowledge of the city and its goings-on, as well as his being known to the high priest (John 18:16) - and was probably the owner of the Upper Room where the Last Supper was held.

He thinks that this gospel was not circulated anonymously - the attribution to a “John” existed since the beginning. It was therefore inevitable that this more obscure John came to be identified with the more famous John son of Zebedee. For Bauckham, the confusion was not surprising; both Johns were associated with Ephesus - which he p(name removed by moderator)oints as the gospel’s place of origin - after all.
I disagree with Bauckham on three counts.

In the synoptic gospels Jesus eats the Pasch with the Twelve. It can’t be anyone outside the Twelve.

From the synoptics we also learn that Jesus was paticularly close to Peter, James, and John.
So it is not anyone of the Twelve other than these three.

Peter is mentioned many times in this gospel so it is not Peter. The beloved disciple is always where Peter is. In the book of Acts, Peter is always with John on many important occasions. So with that information, the beloved disciple is John bar Zebedee.
 
Do you think it would be easy to remember the details of something that happened 65 years ago? Generally speaking, would you trust a witness who testified to an event that occurred 65 years ago or would you think that it would be normal for there to be some errors in her testimony? The Houston Police department can’t remember shootings that happened four years ago. If they can’t remember things that happened four years ago, how could you expect them to remember something that happened 65 years ago?
houstonpress.com/news/officials-can-t-remember-the-last-time-hpd-saw-an-unjustified-shooting-here-s-why-8280136
As far as remembering past events, remember that the older one gets, the more clear earlier memories are, which is why the elderly often reminisce about their childhood or youth. The earlier memories become clearer than the more recent ones.
John was in his twenties or younger when he walked with Jesus. Those astonishing events would have imprinted themselves irreversibly on his mind.
I remember events from 65 years ago, when I was six. Easier for John, who was older.

.
 
The Bible isn’t journalism. It is literature.

The primary concern of the Bible is salvation, not historical accuracy. That’s all.

Everything God put in the Bible about salvation is 100% accurate.

The very fact that historical accuracy of the Bible is discussed as much as it is illustrates how the whole point of the Bible is missed.

-Tim-
…a particular form of literature that is considered to be inspired, unlike any other literature. (see Providentissimus Deus).
 
Do you think it would be easy to remember the details of something that happened 65 years ago? Generally speaking, would you trust a witness who testified to an event that occurred 65 years ago or would you think that it would be normal for there to be some errors in her testimony? The Houston Police department can’t remember shootings that happened four years ago. If they can’t remember things that happened four years ago, how could you expect them to remember something that happened 65 years ago?
houstonpress.com/news/officials-can-t-remember-the-last-time-hpd-saw-an-unjustified-shooting-here-s-why-8280136
That’s a very ignorant false dichotomy
It’s completely lacks an understanding of what discipleship actually meant and how meticulous the oral tradition were.
Most skills were handed down from master to pupil… Actually writing can be more ambiguous.
 
That’s a very ignorant false dichotomy
It’s completely lacks an understanding of what discipleship actually meant and how meticulous the oral tradition were…
Looking at the contradictions in how each disciple described the site at the tomb after the Crucifixion, it does not seem to be very meticulous to me, because there are serious differences in what happened.
 
Looking at the contradictions in how each disciple described the site at the tomb after the Crucifixion, it does not seem to be very meticulous to me, because there are serious differences in what happened.
Those differences can be reconciled.
 
Looking at the contradictions in how each disciple described the site at the tomb after the Crucifixion, it does not seem to be very meticulous to me, because there are serious differences in what happened.
All four agree Mary Magdalene was there. All four agree that more than one person went. (Even in John’s account, Mary Magdalene says “They have taken the Lord away and we do not know where they have laid Him” - suggesting the presence of others with her, even though she is the only one named. She does not say “I.”) All three synoptics agree that another Mary went with Mary Magdalene.

Seriously, the only real difference is regarding the third woman - Luke’s Joanna vs. Mark’s Salome - but even then, Luke mentions that “other women” went with Mary M., Mary mother of James/Joses, and Joanna. Don’t believe me? Read Luke.

The issue of the female disciples is not even the ‘serious difference’ of the resurrection accounts.
 
All four agree Mary Magdalene was there. All four agree that more than one person went. (Even in John’s account, Mary Magdalene says “They have taken the Lord away and we do not know where they have laid Him” - suggesting the presence of others with her, even though she is the only one named. She does not say “I.”) All three synoptics agree that another Mary went with Mary Magdalene.

Seriously, the only real difference is regarding the third woman - Luke’s Joanna vs. Mark’s Salome - but even then, Luke mentions that “other women” went with Mary M., Mary mother of James/Joses, and Joanna. Don’t believe me? Read Luke.

The issue of the female disciples is not even the ‘serious difference’ of the resurrection accounts.
There are other differences concerning who they saw.
 
That’s a very ignorant false dichotomy
It’s completely lacks an understanding of what discipleship actually meant and how meticulous the oral tradition were…
Those differences can be reconciled.
Paul does not mention any women at the tomb. A poster says that was because women were not thought of as good witnesses. But why would the gospel writers think that they were good witnesses?
Also, I object to saying it is ignorant to deny that one is equal to two. One man is not the same as two angels.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top