Historical accuracy of the gospel of John

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patrick457 said:
Here’s the full context of Pope Francis, for the record.

He is the intercessor, he who prays, and prays to God with us and before us. Jesus has saved us. He prayed this great prayer—his sacrifice, his life—to save us, to justify us: we are justified thanks to him. Now, he is gone and he prays. But is Jesus a spirit? Jesus is not a spirit! Jesus is a person. He is a man, with flesh like our own but in glory. Jesus has the wounds on his hands, on his feet, and on his side. And when he prays, he shows the Father the price of our justification. And he prays for us, as if saying: ‘Father, may this not be lost!’

Now as everyone knows by this point, Pope Francis is not the most eloquent or the most clear and precise speaker. But he’s not saying heretical things here. The Pope is not saying that Jesus is just a human being. He is not saying that God or the Spirit of God ≠ Jesus. What he is saying that Jesus is a flesh-and-blood human being, not a bodiless ghost or phantom (in context, this is what the word ‘spirit’ means - granted, the pope is paraphrasing Luke 24 here). It is an affirmation of what the Church believes and has believed: Jesus is true God and true man.
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Yep. Unlike PNEUMA, Patrick takes it in context.
 
PNEUMA said:
“Jesus is a spirit” is found no where in the catechisms thousand pages. Pope Francis says Jesus is not a spirit, Jesus himself says his not a spirit, because Jesus is not a spirit !

The whole Jesus is a spirit claim is anti-Eucharist and based on the unwillingness to believe the words “this is my body” and “this is my blood” and unwillingness to believe that words, are spirit that give life to the bread and wine (make it become the body and blood of Christ)

And also the unwillingness to believe that a human can be God.

John 10:33 “You, a man, are making yourself God”
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So we’ve been going back and forth for a week now, and I still don’t think anyone knows what you’re saying. We all agree Jesus is not a spirit. I think we started questioning you because of your view that God the Father Spirit inhabited or dwelled in Jesus. Is that what you’re saying?
 
ShanPO said:
So we’ve been going back and forth for a week now, and I still don’t think anyone knows what you’re saying. We all agree Jesus is not a spirit. I think we started questioning you because of your view that God the Father Spirit inhabited or dwelled in Jesus. Is that what you’re saying?
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No, you can find clear gnostic thoughts in the tread,
  1. “Jesus Christ was not a human person, but a Divine Person with human nature”
  2. “Jesus has to be Pure Spirit to be One of the Person of the blessed Trinity”
  3. “The second Person of the Trinity is spirit”
Yes, I also believe Jesus when he says, “the Father is in me” and “the Father who dwells in me”

John 14:8 “Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

The Jews on the other hand claimed he had a evil spirit in him.
 
PNEUMA said:
No, you can find clear gnostic thoughts in the tread,
  1. “Jesus Christ was not a human person, but a Divine Person with human nature”
  2. “Jesus has to be Pure Spirit to be One of the Person of the blessed Trinity”
  3. “The second Person of the Trinity is spirit”
Yes, I also believe Jesus when he says, “the Father is in me” and “the Father who dwells in me”

John 14:8 "Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works."

The Jews on the other hand claimed he had a evil spirit in him.
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In each of those three posts, the author said that Jesus is a flesh and blood human being with a Divine Spirit. Methinks you’re looking for something that isn’t there.
 
ShanPO said:
In each of those three posts, the author said that Jesus is a flesh and blood human being with a Divine Spirit. Methinks you’re looking for something that isn’t there.
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No, that’s what I have been saying the whole time. There’s a big difference between “to be a spirit” and “to have a spirit” Especially when the spirit is another person.

John 8:47 “The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?” “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus”

The Jews did not doubt he had a spirit, they just said it was a demon, not the Father as Jesus said.
 
PNEUMA said:
No, that’s what I have been saying the whole time. There’s a big difference between “to be a spirit” and “to have a spirit” Especially when the spirit is another person.

John 8:47 “The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?” “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus”

The Jews did not doubt he had a spirit, they just said it was a demon, not the Father as Jesus said.
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So that’s the crux of this whole thread: that Jesus is not the Second Person of the Holy Trinity become man.
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
So that’s the crux of this whole thread: that Jesus is not the Second Person of the Holy Trinity become man.
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I don’t think that’s Pneuma’s argument. I think what he’s saying is that Jesus’ spirit is actually the Father, and that He does not have his own divine spirit. Am I right in this?
 
ShanPO said:
I don’t think that’s Pneuma’s argument. I think what he’s saying is that Jesus’ spirit is actually the Father, and that He does not have his own divine spirit. Am I right in this?
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That’s exactly what I said.
 
+Doubts . . . such as the original poster’s . . . as are clearly revealed in the subject of this thread . . . will all disappear if the below quote of truth is . . . deeply . . . considered . . . and meditated upon . . . which quote is from the . . . wonderful and wise riches . . . of our Holy Mother Church’s Magisterial teachings . . .
:coffeeread:
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
PART ONE: THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
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Article 2 - THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
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81
Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.
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Article 3 - SACRED SCRIPTURE
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104
In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it ** NOT** as human word, "but as what it really is, the Word of God."

In the sacred books,
the
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Father Who is in heaven
comes lovingly
❤️
to meet His children,
and talks with them.
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:bible1: “How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand …” Psalms 139:17-18b​

:bible1: “For my thoughts are NOT your thoughts, NEITHER are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” Isaiah 55:8​

:bible1: “So shall **my word **be that goeth forth out of **my **mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which **I **please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto **I **sent it.” Isaiah 55:11​

:bible1: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but **my words **shall not pass away.” Matthew 24:35​

:bible1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1​

"And the
Word
was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
and we saw his glory;
the glory as it were of the
only begotten of the Father,
full of grace and truth."
John 1:14
:bible1:

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord+
. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Mary+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
. . . our
"Father Who Art in Heaven"
we love Thee+
. . . thank You Dear Father+​
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
That’s exactly what I said.
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No, Pnuema is saying Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, God made man, Flesh and Blood human being, but that his Spirit is that of the Father, which makes me wonder if he believes Jesus is divine on His own or if His divinity is such because of the Father.

I think what’s confusing all of us is that Pneuma keeps on repeating something we all agree with (Jesus is an actual flesh and blood human being) and won’t respond to questions regarding what I just said above, ie if Jesus is only divine because he “possesses” the Father’s Spirit.
 
ShanPO said:
I don’t think that’s Pneuma’s argument. I think what he’s saying is that Jesus’ spirit is actually the Father, and that He does not have his own divine spirit. Am I right in this?
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The Father is his own spirit. The Father and Jesus are one (John 10:30)
 
PNEUMA said:
No, you find it difficult to believe a human can be equal to God, without at the same time being a spirit, which he is not.
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JB has said numerous times he believes a human IS God. In my opinion, that’s equal.
 
PNEUMA said:
No, you find it difficult to believe a human can be equal to God, without at the same time being a spirit, which he is not.
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The second Person of the Trinity is Spirit incarnate in the person of Jesus.

This is what I said.
 
PNEUMA said:
The distinct spirit is the Father, Jesus is not a spirit at all.
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CCC 254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
PNEUMA;14007780:
ShanPO;14007647:
Does Jesus have a distinct spirit or does He share a spirit with the Father?
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The distinct spirit is the Father, Jesus is not a spirit at all.CCC 254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.
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So, the Catechism of the Catholic Church confirms that the Father is a distinct spirit
 
ShanPO said:
PNEUMA;14007780:
ShanPO;14007647:
PNEUMA;14007440:
ShanPO;14007317:
I don’t think that’s Pneuma’s argument. I think what he’s saying is that Jesus’ spirit is actually the Father, and that He does not have his own divine spirit. Am I right in this?
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The Father is his own spirit. The Father and Jesus are one (John 10:30)Does Jesus have a distinct spirit or does He share a spirit with the Father?The distinct spirit is the Father, Jesus is not a spirit at all.Did you even read what I asked you? Do Jesus and the Father share a Spirit?
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Yes, Jesus has a distinct spirit, and the distinct spirit is the Father or as you said “Jesus’ spirit is actually the Father”

The Father is present in Jesus.

John 14:8 “Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”
 
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