Historical background of the Church, the Bible and Doctrines

[Radical]

hi Gottle

So no measure of knowledge could possibly lead a single human being to Christ. It was not by intellectual brilliance or vastness of learning that Simon son of John recognised Jesus of Nazareth as God’s Messiah - it was by the utterly gracious revelation of the Father, and by nothing less.

I fully agree with this, but the OP is not about “leading a single human being to Christ”…it is about the possibility of leading 20 human beings to one of two Christian denominations

 

[Worthy5]

Hans most certainly has a bone to pick with conservative Catholicism, but if you read his The Catholic Church: a Short History you will see that he denies the historicity of many modern Catholic views including the presbyteral-episcopal church and papal infallibility. He declares that “it is no anachronism to claim that Jesus was anything but the representative of a patriarchial hierarchy.”

Again, if you read *Why I am a Catholic * (which focuses on his views regarding the papacy) you would note that Wills holds that the priesthood was not instituted by Christ, but was a development. Concerning apostolic succession, Wills states that bishops were not consecrated by Peter’s successors (or any other apostle’s)…they were elected by their own communities. He states that anything like papal primacy of jurisdiction was foreign to Ignatius and Ireneaus. He denies papal infallibility.

I think the entire discussion on the nature of the Churchapal infallibility etc…are all arguments without a bone to pick. I mean we have historic evidence that Christ said to Peter " You are Peter and upon this rock I build my Church" and " they who hear you hear me". At that point Christ leaves the scene, without writing his own book, and the apostle are left to proceed. How and in what manner the Church develops from that point throughout time is what it is. The authority has been established. We believe that Christ is ultimately guiding the Chruch in crucial matters of faith and morals despite other types of problems the Church has had throught the centuries. I say simply state that to any Protestant and basically cut him off at the kneels with all the scripture interpretation arguments. Any language can be interpreted in multiple ways and the fact is scripture was written after the Church already form. We do not need to have Chirst say in the Bible" There is such a thing as Papal Infallibility. That is what the Church has revealed as a part of the deposit of faith. IMHO

 

[DonLeon]

I think the entire discussion on the nature of the Churchapal infallibility etc…are all arguments without a bone to pick. I mean we have historic evidence that Christ said to Peter " You are Peter and upon this rock I build my Church" and " they who hear you hear me". At that point Christ leaves the scene, without writing his own book, and the apostle are left to proceed. How and in what manner the Church develops from that point throughout time is what it is. The authority has been established. We believe that Christ is ultimately guiding the Chruch in crucial matters of faith and morals despite other types of problems the Church has had throught the centuries. I say simply state that to any Protestant and basically cut him off at the kneels with all the scripture interpretation arguments. Any language can be interpreted in multiple ways and the fact is scripture was written after the Church already form. We do not need to have Chirst say in the Bible" There is such a thing as Papal Infallibility. That is what the Church has revealed as a part of the deposit of faith. IMHO

Worthy5 You have said it and there should be no arguement from anyone. Holy Mother Church derives her authority direct from Jesus and there is no two ways about it.All can argue all they want and come up with so called “proof” to show otherwise, but it is just
wisps blowing in the wind or hot air dissipating in the atmosphere.

The trouble is that there are too many who listen to the devil’s arguments trying to prove otherwise. Our Lord said that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against"His church, and so far for 2000 years they haven’t as hard as Satan has tried.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ferdie]

Many Protestants, Fundamentalist & not, are very learned - that does not make them Catholics.

I agree, but most of these people built their knowledge in their respective denominational background. That is why I asked for nominal catholics and nominal fundamentalist. I don’t want to start with catholics and fundamentalist with lots of educational background of their respective churches since it is my opinion that the pride of their knowledge and learning gets in the way in knowing Christ.

“Knowledge puffs up - grace builds up”, as St. Paul points out. But for God’s grace, all the learning in the world would be profitless, or worse. So no measure of knowledge could possibly lead a single human being to Christ.

I am not talking of worldly knowledge, but knowledge of Jesus Christ through his church.

It was not by intellectual brilliance or vastness of learning that Simon son of John recognised Jesus of Nazareth as God’s Messiah - it was by the utterly gracious revelation of the Father, and by nothing less

.
Peter may have been an uneducated man, but his knowledge of Jesus Christ increased by the day that he was with Jesus, and he was with Jesus Christ for almost three years when God the Father revealed the Messiah to him. He had seen the miracles that Jesus performed. Our Lord already explained to him and to the other Apostles the prophesies of the Old Testament. So in essence Peter was already intellectually knowledgeable of who
Jesus was, though not fully knowledgeable yet when God the Father graciously revealed the Messiah to him.

 

[KingAlfred]

What do you guys think is the likelihood of 10 nominal fundamentalist and 10 nominal Catholics, both with just enough knowledge of Jesus, becoming full pledge Catholics or full pledge fundamentalists if both groups will undergo a 3 month catholic catechism and 3 month fundamentalist catechism covering the historical background of both churches, the protestant and catholic bibles and different doctrines? I’m just curious coz a lot of Catholics that convert to some form of Christianity are mostly not knowledgeable of Jewish and Christian History and whatever they learn of the Catholic Doctrines come from their newly found religion.

Good points. To me, it comes down to where I place my spiritual emphasis. Do I place it on the Incarnaton, e.g., the life of Christ, or on the post-Incarnation, e.g., the life of the Catholic Church? I consciously opt for the former, while sub-consciously clinging to the latter. I remain Catholic because that’s been my indoctrination, the deeper teachings of which define my spirituality, and because I admire its role in the rise of Christianity as a world religion, and the creation of the most advanced culture on Earth – Western Christian culture, the ‘brain’ of Western Civilization. That said, my devotion goes to the imitation of Christ, a practice that transcends denominationalism.

 

[ferdie]

hi GottleI fully agree with this, but the OP is not about “leading a single human being to Christ”…it is about the possibility of leading 20 human beings to one of two Christian denominations

Now you are assuming that “it is not about leading a single human being to Christ”, that is is about the “possibility of leading 20 human beings to one of two Christian denominations” (BTW it is my belief that the Catholic Church is not a denomination).
I believe that a nominal catholic and a nominal fundamentalist who are genuinely seeking the truth, once given the historical background of their respective churches, the Bible and Doctrines, will become Catholics.
And by this, I don’t mean to say that when they are not sincerely seeking the truth if they become fundamentalists.If you find Christ in the 'Fundamentalist Church or the Catholic Church, so be it. I believe that we are judge according to how we respond the grace given to us.

 

[racing59]

Now you are assuming that “it is not about leading a single human being to Christ”, that is is about the “possibility of leading 20 human beings to one of two Christian denominations” (BTW it is my belief that the Catholic Church is not a denomination).
I believe that a nominal catholic and a nominal fundamentalist who are genuinely seeking the truth, once given the historical background of their respective churches, the Bible and Doctrines, will become Catholics.
And by this, I don’t mean to say that when they are not sincerely seeking the truth if they become fundamentalists.If you find Christ in the 'Fundamentalist Church or the Catholic Church, so be it. I believe that we are judge according to how we respond the grace given to us.

This is the kind of attitude(in my oppinion) should be the attitude of a Church Jesus Christ would start. Without prejudice against other Christian faiths.What I look for in a Church is a sense of humility that Jesus taught us to have. Grace is for all of God’s children. I truely believe that what ever truth you find for you, God will honor that. It is refreshing to here this from others.

 

[ferdie]

This is the kind of attitude(in my oppinion) should be the attitude of a Church Jesus Christ would start. Without prejudice against other Christian faiths.What I look for in a Church is a sense of humility that Jesus taught us to have. Grace is for all of God’s children. I truely believe that what ever truth you find for you, God will honor that. It is refreshing to here this from others.

Thank you. Attitude is just one thing. We have to grow in Christ, and practice our faith. But knowledge of his body his Church is also profitable in converting people to Jesus Christ. Listening to the Church He founded is profitable in understanding our Lord Jesus Christ and his teachings. Grace is given to us by God, and it is up to us to respond positively, negatively or passively.

 

[racing59]

Thank you. Attitude is just one thing. We have to grow in Christ, and practice our faith. But knowledge of his body his Church is also profitable in converting people to Jesus Christ. Listening to the Church He founded is profitable in understanding our Lord Jesus Christ and his teachings. Grace is given to us by God, and it is up to us to respond positively, negatively or passively.

Your welcome,
I love when people post there positions in a positive manner. To deny the Catholic Church hasn’t been around for along time is just silly. I’m here to learn, I get more out of the post when things are dicused calm and rationaly. I learn so much about people of all different faiths. I pray for the day the Lord leads me to were I belong.I my ask questions at times,but in no way is it to attack the Catholic Church.I find alot of beauty in her. I’m just not there yet.
Peace