Historical Christianity is One, Holy, Catholic, & Apostolic Church

[Rightlydivide]

christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-earlychurch.html
Early church fathers support Sola Scriptura

The Bible supports Sola Scriptura
christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-bible.html

Is the Pope a good example for all Christians, did he follow Biblical doctrines?
[(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/two_faces_of_catholicism.html](http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/two_faces_of_catholicism.html)

 

[jmcrae]

T
Not that part, the appoint for yourselves! The local churches get to vote and decide

How do you get “vote” out of “appoint”? These letters were not written to the housewives of the parishes, but to the Bishop of the Diocese. Even today, it continues to be the local Bishop who appoints the priests, and Bishops are appointed by the Pope from among the priests, on the recommendation of their Bishop.

By the way, a “local Church” is a Diocese - it is headed by a Bishop, and he is the one who makes all of the important decisions.

 

[jmcrae]

Those baptized, so why does the catholic church not follow this from early Christian history as well?

No unbaptized person may partake of the Eucharist. No unbeliever or apostate person, even if he is baptized, may partake of it, either. We follow St. Paul’s directions, as laid out in I Corinthians 11 - no one may partake of the Eucharist who has not confessed his sins to the priest, and cleansed his conscience of all unbelief and of all evil.

 

[YADA]

christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-earlychurch.html
Early church fathers support Sola Scriptura

The Bible supports Sola Scriptura
christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-bible.html

Is the Pope a good example for all Christians, did he follow Biblical doctrines?
[(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/two_faces_of_catholicism.html](http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/two_faces_of_catholicism.html)

Perhaps you should spend less time visiting anti-catholic websites that falsely present catholic teachings and has dubious storys of ‘catholics’ that have left the faith and read the catechism and official authentic church teachings. When you read the what a catholic mass is ont this page, these people have not a clue what authentic catholic teaching is nor what the Mass is or what the parts of the mass are.

The storys by the catholics are devoid of any basic catholic teachings…like “I went to mass eery Sunday but it was not until I began to read the bible that I became Christian…” The Mass is comprised of scripture from beginning to end with 4 direct readings from scripture on Sundays; three on weekdays. The prayers are scriptural…to say that you never had scripture presented as a catholic, never knew scripture, never read scripture nor heard scripture is just being either totally clueless as a catholic or dishonest…

I teach 3rd grade Religious Education and Adult formation for non-catholics and converts…we get more scripture readings [even the 3rd graders] in one month than these people claim they received [even the former priest and nun] I just do not believe it

If you want to be taken seriously, you should come to this site and honestly seek and share information…many of our non catholic brethren do just that…but you are just parroting the same old anti-catholic line…

 

[bobzills]

That is why we are the one true Church.

In one Church, would you expect that there be one set of beliefs, or is it OK to have different beliefs promulgated officially?

 

[Rightlydivide]

How do you get “vote” out of “appoint”? These letters were not written to the housewives of the parishes, but to the Bishop of the Diocese. Even today, it continues to be the local Bishop who appoints the priests, and Bishops are appointed by the Pope from among the priests, on the recommendation of their Bishop.

By the way, a “local Church” is a Diocese - it is headed by a Bishop, and he is the one who makes all of the important decisions.

This was written to the congregation, read this carefully:

Elect therefore for yourselves Bishops and Deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful, and approved; for they too minister to you the ministry of the Prophets and Teachers.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Perhaps you should spend less time visiting anti-catholic websites that falsely present catholic teachings and has dubious storys of ‘catholics’ that have left the faith and read the catechism and official authentic church teachings. When you read the what a catholic mass is ont this page, these people have not a clue what authentic catholic teaching is nor what the Mass is or what the parts of the mass are.

The storys by the catholics are devoid of any basic catholic teachings…like “I went to mass eery Sunday but it was not until I began to read the bible that I became Christian…” The Mass is comprised of scripture from beginning to end with 4 direct readings from scripture on Sundays; three on weekdays. The prayers are scriptural…to say that you never had scripture presented as a catholic, never knew scripture, never read scripture nor heard scripture is just being either totally clueless as a catholic or dishonest…

I teach 3rd grade Religious Education and Adult formation for non-catholics and converts…we get more scripture readings [even the 3rd graders] in one month than these people claim they received [even the former priest and nun] I just do not believe it

If you want to be taken seriously, you should come to this site and honestly seek and share information…many of our non catholic brethren do just that…but you are just parroting the same old anti-catholic line…

Three links, which because I am debating so many people who also include very long passages that are not their efforts either, are three main points;
An argment for Bible alone, an argument about the doctrine and beliefs of the ECF, and because I believe the Bible is very clear about Christ being the only way and all other religions are going to hell, I included a link showing the leader of the Catholic Church engaged in ecumenical behavior with false religions which stem from their father, the Devil.
Anecdotal ramblings by some of the people on the links aside.

 

[Rightlydivide]

No unbaptized person may partake of the Eucharist. No unbeliever or apostate person, even if he is baptized, may partake of it, either. We follow St. Paul’s directions, as laid out in I Corinthians 11 - no one may partake of the Eucharist who has not confessed his sins to the priest, and cleansed his conscience of all unbelief and of all evil.

Paul does not say confess your sins to a priest.

 

[Stephen_C]

This was written to the congregation, read this carefully:

But then again you already stated the ECF’s were heretic’s. Now you are trying to use them to proove your case… All I see from those web sites you provided is the same ole anti-catholic dribble/clap trap. As well just the same ole copy and paste…taking it completly out of historical context…to fit your view. If that does not work…just change a few words…how sad…Spending all that time trying to teardown Christ’s Church. Instead of working towards being more Christ like… If it was not folks like those who create those strawman anti-catholic websites and such…there would never have been a need for this type of forum to defend our one and holy Catholic faith.

 

[Stephen_C]

As a matter of fact, the only reason I am here at this forum and Catholic answers to to better defend my faith. Nothing like leaving church after mass and finding a chick track under the windshield of your car…As well being questioned after making the sign of the cross after giving thanks to God for the meal in a restrant…

 

[guanophore]

There is no such thing as an office of priest in the NT for Christians.

It is a synonym for “ministry” or “position”.

‘His office let another take.’ Acts 1:20

Although we all share in the priesthood of believers, not all of us are called to those particular ministries or offices.

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?1 Cor 12:29-30

The NIV???
Oh my my.
My.
My.
There is a word for priest in the NT and it is not used for the offices.

The modern word “priest” is derived from the Gk. “presbyter”, which is commonly translated “elder”. In the NT, the Apostles replaced themselves with bishops,and the bishops ordained men to help them. Bishops were chosen from among the priests (presbyters).

3:1 The saying is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task. 1 Tim 3:1

 

[guanophore]

The Apostles do not have successors.

5 This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you,"
Titus 1:5

Are you saying that Paul, the Apostle, did not appoint Titus to perform these duties in his absence?

Here we have four generations of Apostolic Succession:

"… and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.2 Tim 2:1-2

Paul, an Apostle, who left Timothy in charge, the faithful men that Timothy was to entrust the message,a nd those that are taught by them.

This is a one time exception and they decided by casting lots and God chose.

The requirements to become an Apostle could no longer be met after their deaths, but they left Bishops in charge, and passed on their authority to the Bishops.

Paul was not chosen by anyone except God and he was an apostle. He had hands laid on him by a common disciple, not an apostle. Apostolic succession is a myth that takes a great deal of faith. Especially since the offices of bishop and deacon were not seperated early on.
Oh yeah, cast any lots lately…I did not think so.

I suppose that bishops could still be selected by lot, but we also have other means of discernment. I do agree, though, that it does take faith to embrace the Apostolic Succession. One must completely trust in Jesus that He would keep HIs promise not to abandon the Church.

The reason that the offices of Bishop/Apostle and Deacon WERE separated early on is given in the book of Acts. The Bishops and Apostles were to devote themselves to the Preaching and Teaching, and needed help to perform the daily distribution of food. Selection of deacons and priests for ordination by the bishop is still the same today as it is shown in the book of Acts.

 

[clmowry]

Me thinks its time to dust’m off again.

This would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

Chuck

 

[Rightlydivide]

QUOTE=guanophore;2938022]5 This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you,"
Titus 1:5

Are you saying that Paul, the Apostle, did not appoint Titus to perform these duties in his absence?

I addressed this earlier. Yes he did appoint. Churches and men still appoint or assign other men to missions of larger churches. The key area of difference is the specific role attributed to the office of bishop, deacon, elder in the Bible versus how that occurs in the CC.
We also have to remember that Paul did have hands laid on him by a disciple. We have no evidence, and in fact he clearly states his apostleship does not come from men, that laying on of hands is a linear process that can only stem from those who were apostles themselves. The Bible does not state this and neither does the documents I have referenced.

 

[Rightlydivide]

But then again you already stated the ECF’s were heretic’s. Now you are trying to use them to proove your case… All I see from those web sites you provided is the same ole anti-catholic dribble/clap trap. As well just the same ole copy and paste…taking it completly out of historical context…to fit your view. If that does not work…just change a few words…how sad…Spending all that time trying to teardown Christ’s Church. Instead of working towards being more Christ like… If it was not folks like those who create those strawman anti-catholic websites and such…there would never have been a need for this type of forum to defend our one and holy Catholic faith.

No one seems to want to address the specific points and perhaps you have not read all of the posts, I mean, why would anyone want to?
One of the areas addressed is who is my preacher accountable to? I said the congregation and God. This was not good enough compared to the CC. So I posted a link that shows your head pastor kissing the Koran, a book of lies from the devil himself, and many other comments and actions. If my pastor kissed the Koran or went into a buddhist temple and said their religion is truth as well, we would boot him out the next day.
The God of the Bible does not share your ecumenical spirit. He says all without Jesus are destined for hell. I belive him but it does not appear your head pastor did.

 

[guanophore]

I am aware that God did not need a formal council of Catholics to get his canon of the OT.

You are right. I wonder why He chose that method?

Funny Peter did not need a council from Africa to call Paul’s writings scripture…did he?

Indeed not! Why not? Because He was the Vicar of Christ on Earth, and was holding the keys of the kingdom, given to Him by Christ. Jesus breathed upon him, making him theopneustos, just like the scripture.

 

[guanophore]

Clements letter says that each church gets to chose their own based upon a vote. Ignatius is a forgery. Polycarp never metions a Pope. Papias never mentions a Pope. Justyn Martyr never metnions a Pope.
They did not have successors because the office of Apostle, according to scripture has to have certain signs. History proves that some people strayed from their biblical teachings and that it got progressively worse. Since you asked.

I hope you can spend more time in the Fathers mentioned here. I am sure, if you do, that it will become clear that unity was what identified the Church. All the bishops were in union with each other, and the bishop of Rome.

The successors were not called “Apostles” but bishops, and you are right, the qualifications for Apostle could no longer be met.

What history shows is that the Teachings were preserved in Sacred Oral Tradition, and that the scripture reflects these. Since the canon was not formed for many generations, the faith was transmitted from one faithful, ordained person to another. The bible reflects the teachings, not the other way around.

 

[jmcrae]

Paul does not say confess your sins to a priest.

He says, “But if we judged ourselves, we would not be judged.”

It’s amazing what God forgives, when people go “directly to God” - I know a woman who has been married five times, and according to her, God has absolutely no problem with this behaviour - she checked, by going “directly to Him.” (That is, to her own personal opinions. God had nothing to do with it. Of course, she can’t figure out why her children are getting into so many fights, and having so much trouble in school. But “God” is perfectly okay with her dancing from marriage bed to marriage bed - “He” told her so, when she prayed “directly to Him” about it.)

The Prophet Jeremiah (17:9) says, “The heart is deceitful above all things.” That’s why we need the priest - we can so easily deceive ourselves into thinking that God is okay with some pretty awful behaviour, on our part.

 

[Mannyfit75]

christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-earlychurch.html
Early church fathers support Sola Scriptura

The Bible supports Sola Scriptura
christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-bible.html

Is the Pope a good example for all Christians, did he follow Biblical doctrines?
[(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/two_faces_of_catholicism.html](http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/two_faces_of_catholicism.html)

Posting Anti-Catholic website. I have pass them before. Their claims have been refuted before so we won’t go there. I have not seen those over a year or so…

 

[Mannyfit75]

Three links, which because I am debating so many people who also include very long passages that are not their efforts either, are three main points;
An argment for Bible alone, an argument about the doctrine and beliefs of the ECF, and because I believe the Bible is very clear about Christ being the only way and all other religions are going to hell, I included a link showing the leader of the Catholic Church engaged in ecumenical behavior with false religions which stem from their father, the Devil.
Anecdotal ramblings by some of the people on the links aside.

The Catholic Church is the only Biblical Church founded by Jesus Christ. Yes, there were Schisms and break within like the Reformation. But does that nullified God’s promise that he will be with us forever? No. Jesus himself did not choose his disciples wisely. He had one who betrayed him and another denied him three times. Jesus of course gave Peter a chance. He selected him to lead the Apostles, he is the First Pope. Jesus have ways to strengthen weak men.

Yet, he knows the human heart better than anyone else. The members of the Church are sinners and they are human. The Church also has a divine nature. The soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit. With this, the Church cannot ever teach erroneous doctrines.

For over 2,000 yrs, the Catholic Church has protected Christian from heresies and remain faithful to her Groom, Jesus Christ. The link you provided is serious Anti-Catholic. I don’t know if moderators have took notice to this, but I don’t think the link you posted is within Forum Rules policy.

The Biblical and History Church my friend is the Catholic Church.

The website like attempting to show the ECF believe in Sola Scriptura is true. They did use Scripture but they did not professed Scriptura alone as the sole rule of faith for all Christian matters.

They ECF also clearly support the authority of the Church over Scripture. Even St. Augustine said, “I would not believe the Gospel had it not been the authority of the Catholic Church.”

The Two Faces of Catholicism itself is extremely Anti-Catholic. I also see a lot of photos in there which can be misrepresentative.

I can easily take a picture of you looking at a painting of the Mona Lisa and put a caption, RD is praying to Mona Lisa.

If you really want to know what the Catholic believes. You use Catholic resources not Anti-Catholic resources. Anti-Catholic resources are unreliable and they distort the Truth.

The Catholic Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth. Distorting the truth is not something the CC does. She preserves it. Um, she preserves and protects Him. Who is Him? Jesus Christ. He is the Truth. The Word incarnate.

Sola Scriptura started in 1500s and it no Protestant Church today can trace its history back to the Apostles. None. There was only One Church and it was Catholic.