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Historical Christianity is One, Holy, Catholic, & Apostolic Church
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Mannyfit75
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The Catholic Church did. However, we cannot discuss this further. This is a different topic which we cannot derail this thread. The CC did in the Council of Hippo in 392 AD, and Council of Carthage 396 AD, and this Canonical Books were the same list founded in Council of Florence and Council of Trent. Let’s end this issue of Canon here. If you wish to discuss this further make an new thread on Canon of Scripture.
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jmcrae
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God acts in history. What historical evidence do you have that the Bible came about in some way separately from the Church?
Did it fall down fully formed from Heaven? If so, on what date? Who observed this phenomenon, and who began to copy and translate it?
If not, then trace back the process for me, of how you got your Bible. Trace it in detailed steps all the way back to Moses, writing the stories of Genesis down on parchment paper for the first time in history - and then tell how Moses knew these stories well enough to write them down.
I’ll get you started - you have a Bible on your bookshelf. How did it get into your house, to begin with? (Someone bought it somewhere, or received it as a gift, and brought it into the house.)
How did the person who gave or sold it to you get it?
Etc.
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Mannyfit75
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Fr. Corapi said this. Let me paraphrase his words.
History is God’s story. If you break the word down it can be read as “His tory.” His–story."
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Rightlydivide
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Rightlydivide
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I know and have read all of the history. What we differ on is who was in control. The early church of the Bible was not Catholic.
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DarkMark
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The Early Church by all definition would be called Catholic. After reading the Early Church writings, its hard to imagine why anyone will not join Christ’ Church
If Christ Church was in charge 2000 years ago to decide which books belong in the Bible, defend the Apostles teachings, etc then why not today?
Jesus said His Church is in charge and will not fall into error. If it were God’s will for the Church to established the correct books, why will God leave Her and let Her fall into corruption? Jesus promised He stand by His Church, did He not?
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jmcrae
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If it was Christ’s Church, then it is still here today, since Jesus said that He would never allow the gates of Hell to prevail over it. Which one is it, then, please?
(The Catholic Church is the only one I am aware of that can prove itself historically to be the original.)
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Rightlydivide
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No icons. No emphasis on Mary. No Pope. You tell me?The Early Church by all definition would be called Catholic. After reading the Early Church writings, its hard to imagine why anyone will not join Christ’ Church
If Christ Church was in charge 2000 years ago to decide which books belong in the Bible, defend the Apostles teachings, then what not today?
Jesus said His Church is in charge and will not fall into error. If it were God’s will for the Church to established the correct books, why will God leave Her and let Her fall into corruption? Jesus promised He stand by His Church, did He not?
Believe what you will though. He did not say his church would not fall into error, he said the gates of hell (death) would not prevail. It has not. Through Christ, and those who are part of his church, the pillar of truth, the truth is still available to those who seek it.
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Rightlydivide
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The Catholic church does not have the doctrines of the Bible. Sorry.
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DarkMark
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Better go back and read the Scriptures my friend. Jesus said He will guide His Church. So the gates of Hades would not prevail, but the Church will go under corruption?
Paul said the Church is the “pillar of Truth”. Christ Church hold all the truth, and since Jesus guides His Church, She will not fall into error. If Christ Church can fall into error, did you better not read your Bible. Who can trust it? Second, the Early Church fathers writings proves that Protestants are wrong.
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DarkMark
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Yes She does since the Church is Christ’ Bride. . . .
Which Church is the original Church of Christ established by the Apostles?
But we just have to believe you right?
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Mannyfit75
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Not so. The Scripture then was only the OT. The First Century Christians had two tradition written (OT) and oral (NT). The NT was not written 10-20 years after the Ascension of the Lord. The Gospel was spread orally.
The Book of Acts, in the Council of Jerusalem did not refer to Scripture of the OT. Instead, Peter use his encounter in a vision he had about Gentiles.
Jesus told the Apostles specifically. “Go into the whole world and preached the gospel to the whole creation.” (See Mark 16:15) If that isn’t universal or “Catholic” I don’t know what is.
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Mannyfit75
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This is another topic which can be discussed on another thread. Please do not derail this thread.
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jmcrae
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Since I am not qualified to interpret the Bible, I just have to trust you on that one. (I have never noticed any contradictions between Church teachings and the Bible, myself.)
If the Catholic Church is not the right one, then point me to the right one, please, because it is essential to belong to Christ’s Church, so that we can be under His authority.
Which one is it, please?
Criteria from the Bible show that it must be world-wide (Matthew 28:16-20); must have started in the time of Christ (Matthew 16:18-19), must trace back to St. Peter as chief shepherd in a direct and unbroken line (John 21:15-19), without crossing over any denominational boundaries (John 17), and must have clear authority to teach and correct (Matthew 18:15-20).
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Mannyfit75
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She does. The Catechism make this very clear:
The unity of the Old and New Testaments
128 The Church, as early as apostolic times, and then constantly in her Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments through typology, which discerns in God’s works of the Old Covenant prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of his incarnate Son.
129 Christians** therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen**. Such** typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself**. Besides,** the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament**. As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.
130 Typology indicates the dynamic movement toward the fulfillment of the divine plan when "God [will] be everything to everyone."Nor do the calling of the patriarchs and the exodus from Egypt, for example, lose their own value in God’s plan, from the mere fact that they were intermediate stages.
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DarkMark
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Which all points to the Catholic Church. Which Protestant Church can traced their Church to the Apostles? They all started by Martin Luther in the 1500s. Pretty late don’t you think?
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jmcrae
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By 1500 years, or so.
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Mannyfit75
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Here is an in brief of Scripture and the Catholic Church:
134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, “because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ” (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8
L 176,642: cf. ibid. 2,9L 176,642-643).
135 “The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God” (DV 24).
136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).
137 Interpretation of the inspired Scripture must be attentive above all to what God wants to reveal through the sacred authors for our salvation. What comes from the Spirit is not fully "understood except by the Spirit’s action’ (cf. Origen, Hom. in Ex. 4, 5: PG 12, 320).
138 The Church accepts and venerates as inspired the 46 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New.
139 The four Gospels occupy a central place because Christ Jesus is their center.
140** The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God’s plan and his Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old; the two shed light on each other; both are true Word of God.**
141 “The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the Body of the Lord” (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life. “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path” (Ps 119:105; cf. Is 50:4).
134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, “because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ” (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8
L 176,642: cf. ibid. 2,9L 176,642-643).135 “The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God” (DV 24).
136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).
137 Interpretation of the inspired Scripture must be attentive above all to what God wants to reveal through the sacred authors for our salvation. What comes from the Spirit is not fully "understood except by the Spirit’s action’ (cf. Origen, Hom. in Ex. 4, 5: PG 12, 320).
138 The Church accepts and venerates as inspired the 46 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New.
139 The four Gospels occupy a central place because Christ Jesus is their center.
140** The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God’s plan and his Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old; the two shed light on each other; both are true Word of God.**
141 “The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the Body of the Lord” (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life. “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path” (Ps 119:105; cf. Is 50:4).
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Rightlydivide
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I can’t keep up. I am not even sure who to answer. I will look to see if anyone has good points.
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