Historical Christianity is One, Holy, Catholic, & Apostolic Church

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Mannyfit75 said:
If he truly reject the ECF he ought to reject the Trinity. The ECF taught it and defined it in the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. The word Trinity was never verbally taught by the Apostles themselves. When the heresy of Arianism arise in the year 325, the ECF had to define the nature of God. They base this on several Scriptural Text in the NT, especially Jesus’ own words, “baptism them in the Name of the Father, And of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit.”
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That’s why I asked the question. And by depending Scripture alone he is acknowledging the authority of the church fathers as he is using their canon of the Bible.

I can see this discussion is going to take the usual track. He will tell us he believes in Scripture alone and that the church is not infallible in its interpretations of Scripture but he is,
 
Mannyfit75 said:
But it doesn’t say** Trinity**. You **can’t find the word **Trinity in the Bible. It derives from Origen’s writings. Trinity originated from the Latin word Trinitas.

Do you believe in the Trinity? If you do, then you have to believe that the ECF have it right concerning the Triune God.
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I believe everything in the Bible, nothing more, nothing less. The Bible says they are one.
 
Rightlydivide said:
There is no such thing as an office of priest in the NT for Christians.
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From a commentary I found that may show your that it is in the NT.
In fact, if you read some older Catholic translations of the Bible, they will use the word “priest,” entirely appropriately, where the Protestant Bible says “elder.” For example, this is the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, which is the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version.
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In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus:
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"For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee."
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In James 5:14-15 we read:
**
"Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him**
Insight #3: The New Testament Priesthood is sacramental
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  1. The definition of a sacrament
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People often have messed up notions of what a sacrament is, so to try to clear the air I wish to begin by offering the historic definition of what a sacrament is – the definition that has been used all through Christian history, from Catholic giants such as Augustine and Aquinas to Protestant giants such as Luther and Calvin. The bottom line is this: Sacraments are outward, physical means that communicate God’s grace to us. Contrary to the hysterical claims of some, sacraments are not magic; they do not bend God to human will. They are the Biblical ways that God himself has appointed for us to reach out and humbly receive his grace.
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  1. The sacrament of holy anointing
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Here in James 5 we have the priests of the church – that is, the presbyters or “elders” of the church – distributing the sacrament of holy anointing. The priests come in, anoint the sick person with oil, and pray over him so that he might be raised up and forgiven any sins he has committed.
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When I discovered this passage in the book of James as a Protestant, I was disturbed because I recognized that my Protestant church was simply out of synch with the Bible on this point. It was in disobedience to Scripture and had made void God’s word by its human tradition of ignoring this sacrament and pretending that baptism and communion are the only two sacraments.
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i. Rom 15:15-16

The Bible indicates New Testament priests offer at least two sacrifices. One of them is discussed in Romans 15:15-16. In the New International Version of this passage, we read:

“I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”
 
Mannyfit75 said:
From a commentary I found that may show your that it is in the NT.

i. Rom 15:15-16

The Bible indicates New Testament priests offer at least two sacrifices. One of them is discussed in Romans 15:15-16. In the New International Version of this passage, we read:

“I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”
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The NIV???
Oh my my.
My.
My.
There is a word for priest in the NT and it is not used for the offices.
 
Rightlydivide said:
I do not use that term, its not in the Bible. But I believe everything the Bible says about God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.
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Let me ask you a question. This is basic theology. Just answer yes or no. I want a direct answer.
  1. Do you believe there is One God?
  2. Do you believe that God is three persons. God the Father, God, the Son, and God the Holy Spirit but One God?
  3. Do you believe that the Word of God, who is God was made flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity?
  4. Do you believe that Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity?
  5. Do you believe that God, the Father, is the First Person of the Trinity?
  6. How do you explain that God how is Three in One without using the Word Trinity?
 
Rightlydivide said:
I am not interested in having a discussion about anything outside of the Bible. I do not trust the ECF.
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Sure you do, you just don’t know it.

You speak of a bible as if it fell down from Heaven. Where did you get your bible from? 🤷
 
Rightlydivide said:
I do not use that term, its not in the Bible. But I believe everything the Bible says about God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.
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Even that itself, is not found in the bible. Why then do you believe in it?!

You need a good lesson in why Sola Scriptura is man-made, false, and fabricated doctrine.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
Let me ask you a question. This is basic theology. Just answer yes or no. I want a direct answer.
  1. Do you believe there is One God?
  2. Do you believe that God is three persons. God the Father, God, the Son, and God the Holy Spirit but One God?
  3. Do you believe that the Word of God, who is God was made flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity?
  4. Do you believe that Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity?
  5. Do you believe that God, the Father, is the First Person of the Trinity?
  6. How do you explain that God how is Three in One without using the Word Trinity?
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I believe everything the Bible says.
  1. Yes.
  2. God is not a “persons”. How do you define a person?
  3. John 1:14
  4. I dont use the word Trinity
  5. I don’t use the word Trinity
  6. I don’t use the word Trinity. I say I believe everything in the Bible and no one usually asks believe it or not.
 
Rightlydivide said:
There is no such thing as an office of priest in the NT for Christians.
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I think you need to start reading with eyes open:

Rev 1:6
And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father, to him be glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10
And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ; and shall reign with him a thousand years.

AND THEY CAN EVEN FORGIVE SINS TOO!
James 5:14-15
Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.

AND LETS NOT FORGET:
John 20:22-23
When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
 
Rightlydivide said:
1 John5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
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Ah the imfamous " **Comma Johanneum" -**a bogus translation that first appeared in 1592 and was written as a rebuttal to the those who pointed out Scripture didnt mention the trinity. It was used in some transaltions until the early 19th century. You wont find it in ANY of the early epistles or in any trasnslation of Scripture until the aforemention 1592 version. One would have to admit that had it been translated as such in the early epistles Arianism would have been dead on arrival.

Heres the King James version:

5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

And the NIV:

6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8thea] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

And the New American Standard:

5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who (K)believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

6This is the One who came (L)by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is (M)the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7For there are (N)three that testify: 8**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John 5 ;&version=49;#fen-NASB-30633b”)]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
 
HailMary said:
I think you need to start reading with eyes open:

Rev 1:6
And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father, to him be glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10
And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ; and shall reign with him a thousand years.

AND THEY CAN EVEN FORGIVE SINS TOO!
James 5:14-15
Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.

AND LETS NOT FORGET:
John 20:22-23
When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
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The book of Revelation does not mention offices, the others are bogus and mistranslations
 
Rightlydivide said:
The NIV???
Oh my my.
My.
My.
There is a word for priest in the NT and it is not used for the offices.
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Act 1:16-25.

"My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language ‘Akeldama,’ that is, Field of Blood. For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: 'May another take his office.’ Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection." So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. Then they prayed, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place.” Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.

In order to replace the 12 Apostle, Peter and the Apostle selected Matthias to replace Judas. He took over his office. I could go on and provide you more Scriptural proof text that the Apostle lay hands to their successors. But this is just one of the verse.
 
estesbob said:
Ah the imfamous " **Comma Johanneum" -**a bogus translation that first appeared in 1592 and was written as a rebuttal to the those who pointed out Scripture didnt mention the trinity. It was used in some transaltions until the early 19th century. You wont find it in ANY of the early epistles or in any trasnslation of Scripture until the aforemention 1592 version. One would have to admit that had it been translated as such in the early epistles Arianism would have been dead on arrival.

Heres the King James version:

5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

And the NIV:

6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8thea] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

And the New American Standard:

5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who (K)believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

6This is the One who came (L)by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is (M)the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7For there are (N)three that testify: 8**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John 5 ;&version=49;#fen-NASB-30633b”)]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
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The first work to use the Comma Johanneum as an actual part of the Epistle’s text appears to be the 4th century Latin book Liber Apologeticus, probably written by Priscillian of Ávila (died 385), or his close follower Bishop Instantius.[4] Raymond E. Brown’s Epistle of John considers the Liber Apologeticus the Comma’s source.
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Obviously seem devious scribes attempted to subtract from Gods word
 
estesbob said:
Well of course it did. Thats not the question. the question is by who’s authority do you presume to interpret scripture for the rest of us?
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I am not interpreting scripture for you. I am offering defenses from Gods word to statements made that contradict it.
 
Rightlydivide said:
God’s inspired word did come from him.
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Nobody is denying that. Do you think that the bible, as you see it today, was together in that form or are you aware that it took almost 1000 years for the OT canon to be determined and about 400 years for the NT canon?

I’m sure you have heard of:

Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church

A serious student of history needs to answer the question: How do we know what books determined the bible? Its not found within Scripture, so where do you get your information from?

Can you answer that?
 
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Rightlydivide:
I believe everything the Bible says.
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  1. Yes.
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  1. God is not a “persons”. How do you define a person?
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A being. God is a beginning. Mary gave birth to a person, Jesus Christ. God is a person.
  1. John 1:14
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Of course. Jesus is the Word made flesh.
  1. I dont use the word Trinity
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How would refute someone that the Jesus is not God, or the Holy Spirit is not God?
  1. I don’t use the word Trinity
  2. I don’t use the word Trinity. I say I believe everything in the Bible and no one usually asks believe it or not.
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Base on this you do believe in the Trinity. You are just in denial. The majority of Protestants Christians believe in the Triune God. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You just don’t acknowledge the Word Trinity.
 
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