Historical Christianity is One, Holy, Catholic, & Apostolic Church

[Rightlydivide]

Rightlydivide;2931372:

Well you back, so would be so kind and refute our claims?

Who’s a Heretic? The Early Church Fathers, some taught by the disciples themselves, all agree on the Catholic doctrines taught today. I am not saying they are infallible, but they do give us a insight on what the Early Church believed compare to today’s Protestantism. You should also call your founder, Martin Luther, a heretic.

You have lost your composure, this is getting silly.

 

[DarkMark]

Rightlydivide;2931469:

You have lost your composure, this is getting silly.

Its getting silly because you simply do not have a answer for us. You are running away from the truth; something Martin Luther did. . . .

 

[Atreyu]

If you accept the KJV RD, then do you accept the deuterocanonicals as being Scriptural?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I am beginning to wonder if you have read the same conversation I have. This is just odd.
I believe the original manuscripts to be inspired. I believe the Recieved Text has been preserved.

I also believe the earliest manuscript which we do not have. We only have copies.

I did not say the early Church believed in the Bible alone. I believe that everything a Christian needs to believe is now contained in the Bible.
If you are saying that in 55 AD a Christian believed in the Bible alone, I would say you are nuts.

Not everything is in the Bible. How would you refute people who believe abortion (which is not found in the Bible) is not sin. When in fact the majority of Christians condemned it.

The only Christian source which forbid is in the Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve).

Chapter 2.— “you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten…”

newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

The Bible is also silent on issues of human cloning, euthanasia, etc.

If you say that I trust that God preserved his word, I would say you are right on.
I have read enough of the ECF to know they are all over the place. Early on, I have no beef. But later, they were going off the deep end left and right.

The ECF shows the Church had bishops, deacons, believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Eucharist, and others.

They have not been proven. No way. It is a scholarly opinion from the same people who do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Opinion and fact. Two different things.

They have been proven in history. Show me where they have not been proven.

The ECF also show that Mass is the Sacrifice, which makes the sacrifice of the cross present in the Mass in an unbloody manner.

 

[DarkMark]

I am beginning to wonder if you have read the same conversation I have. This is just odd.
I believe the original manuscripts to be inspired. I believe the Recieved Text has been preserved.
I did not say the early Church believed in the Bible alone. I believe that everything a Christian needs to believe is now contained in the Bible.
If you are saying that in 55 AD a Christian believed in the Bible alone, I would say you are nuts.
If you say that I trust that God preserved his word, I would say you are right on.
I have read enough of the ECF to know they are all over the place. Early on, I have no beef. But later, they were going off the deep end left and right.

 

[Mannyfit75]

RightlyDivided:

Excuse me for having a life…

I do not care what a bunch of heretics thought, why should I

They are not heretics. Ignatius of Antioch died for Christ. He was eaten by Lions. Polycarp was stabbed to death when the Pagans could not burn him so a Soldier had stab him and he was killed.

These Christians you called heretics died for Jesus Christ.

Ignatius wrote:

From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts: not that I am devoured by brute beasts, for these, as you know, by the will of God, spared Daniel, but by beasts in the shape of men, in whom the merciless wild beast himself lies hid, and pricks and wounds me day by day. But none of these hardships “move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself,” Acts 20:24 in such a way as to love it better than the Lord. Wherefore I am prepared for [encountering] fire, wild beasts, the sword or the cross, so that only I may see Christ my Saviour and God, who died for me**. I therefore, the prisoner of Christ, who am driven along by land and sea, exhort you: “stand fast in the faith,”** 1 Corinthians 16:13 and be steadfast, “for the just shall live by faith;” Habakkuk 2:4; Galatians 3:11 be unwavering, for “the Lord causes those to dwell in a house who are of one and the same character.”

I don’t know if you fully read the ECF because you don’t seem to grasp that the ECF were martyred for their faith. For being a Christian.

 

[Mannyfit75]

More of writing of St. Ignatius:
St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Romans:

Chapter 4. Allow me to fall a prey to the wild beasts.

I write to the Churches, and impress on them all, that I shall willingly die for God, unless you hinder me. I beseech of you not to show an unseasonable good-will towards me. Suffer me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose instrumentality it will be granted me to attain to God. I am the wheat of God, and let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ. Rather entice the wild beasts, that they may become my tomb, and may leave nothing of my body; so that when I have fallen asleep [in death], I may be no trouble to any one. Then shall I truly be a disciple of Christ, when the world shall not see so much as my body. Entreat Christ for me, that by these instruments I may be found a sacrifice [to God]. I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you. They were apostles; I am but a condemned man: they were free, while I am, even until now, a servant. But when I suffer, I shall be the freed-man of Jesus, and shall rise again emancipated in Him. And now, being a prisoner, I learn not to desire anything worldly or vain.

Chapter 5. I desire to die.

From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, both by night and day, being bound to ten leopards, I mean a band of soldiers, who, even when they receive benefits, show themselves all the worse. But I am the more instructed by their injuries [to act as a disciple of Christ]; “yet am I not thereby justified.” 1 Corinthians 4:4 May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me speedily, and not deal with me as with some, whom, out of fear, they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to do so. Pardon me [in this]: I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple. And let no one, of things visible or invisible, envy me that I should attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.

 

[DarkMark]

They are not heretics. Ignatius of Antioch died for Christ. He was eaten by Lions. Polycarp was stabbed to death when the Pagans could not burn him so a Soldier had stab him and he was killed.

These Christians you called heretics died for Jesus Christ.

Ignatius wrote:

From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts: not that I am devoured by brute beasts, for these, as you know, by the will of God, spared Daniel, but by beasts in the shape of men, in whom the merciless wild beast himself lies hid, and pricks and wounds me day by day. But none of these hardships “move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself,” Acts 20:24 in such a way as to love it better than the Lord. Wherefore I am prepared for [encountering] fire, wild beasts, the sword or the cross, so that only I may see Christ my Saviour and God, who died for me**. I therefore, the prisoner of Christ, who am driven along by land and sea, exhort you: “stand fast in the faith,”** 1 Corinthians 16:13 and be steadfast, “for the just shall live by faith;” Habakkuk 2:4; Galatians 3:11 be unwavering, for “the Lord causes those to dwell in a house who are of one and the same character.”

I don’t know if you fully read the ECF because you don’t seem to grasp that the ECF were martyred for their faith. For being a Christian.

For a Protestant, the ECF were heretics. The Early Christians were in agreement on some issues [doctrines] endorsed by the RCC, but rejected by the Protestants. They simply can not prove the Early Church were Protestant in any way. Most of Rightlydivide doctrines were inventions that came about in the 1500s. . . .

 

[Mannyfit75]

For a Protestant, the ECF were heretics. The Early Christians were in agreement on some issues endorsed by the RCC, but rejected by the Protestants. They simply can not prove the Early Church were Protestant in any way. Most of Rightlydivide doctrines were inventions that came about in the 1500s. . . .

a claim that is false. Protestantism fails big time when it comes to the history of Christianity.

 

[DarkMark]

a claim that is false. Protestantism fails big time when it comes to the history of Christianity.

And Protestantism isn’t consistent with Jesus own words. Why some after learning what the Early Christians believed still remain Protestant is beyond my understanding

 

[Mannyfit75]

Further testimony of St. Polycarp:
The Martyrdom of Polycarp:

The Church of God which sojourns at Smyrna, to the Church of God sojourning in Philomelium, and to all the congregations of the Holy and Catholic Church in every place: Mercy, peace, and love from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

Chapter 9. Polycarp refuses to revile Christ

Now, as Polycarp was entering into the stadium, there came to him a voice from heaven, saying, “Be strong, and show yourself a man, O Polycarp!” No one saw who it was that spoke to him; but those of our brethren who were present heard the voice. And as he was brought forward, the tumult became great when they heard that Polycarp was taken. And when he came near, the proconsul asked him whether he was Polycarp. On his confessing that he was, [the proconsul] sought to persuade him to deny [Christ], saying, “Have respect to your old age,” and other similar things, according to their custom, [such as], "Swear by the fortune of Cæsar; repent, and say, Away with the Atheists."

But Polycarp, gazing with a stern countenance on all the multitude of the wicked heathen then in the stadium, and waving his hand towards them, while with groans he looked up to heaven, said, “Away with the Atheists.” Then, the proconsul urging him, and saying, “Swear, and I will set you at liberty, reproach Christ;”

Polycarp declared, "Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me any injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and my Saviour?"

Chapter 10. Polycarp confesses himself a Christian

And when the proconsul yet again pressed him, and said, “Swear by the fortune of Cæsar,” he answered, "Since you are vainly urgent that, as you say, I should swear by the fortune of Cæsar, and pretendest not to know who and what I am, hear me declare with boldness, I am a Christian. And if you wish to learn what the doctrines of Christianity are, appoint me a day, and you shall hear them." The proconsul replied, “Persuade the people.” But Polycarp said, “To you I have thought it right to offer an account [of my faith]; for we are taught to give all due honour (which entails no injury upon ourselves) to the powers and authorities which are ordained of God. Romans 13:1-7; Titus 3:1 But as for these, I do not deem them worthy of receiving any account from me.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

And Protestantism isn’t consistent with Jesus own words. Why some after learning what the Early Christians believed still remain Protestant is beyond by understanding

They pick and choose Biblical passages to distort the Word of God. Protestantism has its foundation in the Reformation in the 1500s lead by Martin Luther.

The doctrines of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidi was not taught by the Apostles, and their successors. These two doctrines are founded by Fathers of the Reformers.

They did away with Tradition and just use the Bible as their sole role of faith.

The Catholic Church affirms the that Word of God is Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterial Teaching of the Church who is the sole authority can interpret it.

Peter himself warn against using the Bible for mere private interpretation.

“And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him, speaking of this as he does in his letters. There** are some things in them hard to understand**, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the errors of lawless men and lose your own stability. But grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and to the day of eternity.” 2 Peter 3:15-18.

 

[YADA]

There is no such thing as an office of priest in the NT for Christians.

Really…

Why then does Jesus quote Isaiah 22 regarding the office of Prime Minister when he gives Peter the “Keys” and discusses building his Church [the New Davidic Kingdom]?

Why does Peter quote the Old Testament in Acts saying “Let another his*** OFFICE*** take” in selecting a successor for Judas…???

The New Testament Scriptures do not back your position…the church had a leadership established by Jesus. This leadership developed roles [positions] over time… presbyters, deacons etc…

Clearly the NT church had offices that were filled when they became vacant…even the office held by Judas was filled!

 

[DarkMark]

Really…

Why then does Jesus quote Isaiah 22 regarding the office of Prime Minister when he gives Peter the “Keys” and discusses building his Church [the New Davidic Kingdom]?

Why does Peter quote the Old Testament in Acts saying “Let another his*** OFFICE*** take” in selecting a successor for Judas…???

The New Testament Scriptures do not back your position…the church had a leadership established by Jesus. This leadership developed roles [positions] over time… presbyters, deacons etc…

Clearly the NT church had offices that were filled when they became vacant…even the office held by Judas was filled!

The Bible proves that a hierarchy existed within the Early Church. But Protestants can not see this. . . .

 

[DarkMark]

They pick and choose Biblical passages to distort the Word of God. Protestantism has its foundation in the Reformation in the 1500s lead by Martin Luther.

The doctrines of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidi was not taught by the Apostles, and their successors. These two doctrines are founded by Fathers of the Reformers.

They did away with Tradition and just use the Bible as their sole role of faith.

The Catholic Church affirms the that Word of God is Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterial Teaching of the Church who is the sole authority can interpret it.

Peter himself warn against using the Bible for mere private interpretation.

“And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him, speaking of this as he does in his letters. There** are some things in them hard to understand**, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the errors of lawless men and lose your own stability. But grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and to the day of eternity.” 2 Peter 3:15-18.

You are so right!

 

[Mannyfit75]

You are so right!

I don’t know what kind of a Christian who died for his faith to be a heretic. Most of them were martyred for their faith. The word martyred derives from the Greek word μάρτυς which means witness.

 

[epostle]

*Now, the Greek word “presbyter” has an interesting position in the English language. While it’s usually translated as “elder,” the Greek meaning is actually more adjectival – being closer in meaning to “senior” – as in a “senior citizen” or a “father” of the community (i.e. a “patriarch”).

However, what’s most interesting for the Christian usage in English is that “presbyter” already has an equivalent word – an English word which draws its root from the Christian usage of “presbyter” in the Greek language; and that English word is “priest.”

This becomes most clear when one stops reading Scripture from the English (i.e. culturally-Protestant) perspective, and one realizes that the words “presbuteros” (in Greek) and “presbyterus” (in Latin) were used to designate the role of a Catholic (or Orthodox) priest for the first five to ten hundred years of Christianity. Indeed, if one travels to Greece today, one will notice that the Greek word for “priest” is still “presbuteros.”

The change is only apparent in English because we (as English speakers) are viewing things from an inverted perspective. When we hear of Jewish or pagan “priests,” we assume the English word “priest” pre-dates the Christian usage, when in fact the word “priest” comes from the Christian usage of “presbuteros.”

Here’s how it works:

“Presbuteros” (Greek) → “Presbyterus” (Latin) → “Prete” (Italian) → “Pretre” (French) → “Proest” (Old / Middle English) → “Priest” (Modern English).

So, the “presbyters” we see in Scripture are the “priests” of the Catholic Church. That is, they are those who preside as “fathers” at the new Passover Meal (the Eucharist / Holy Communion). For, in the Jewish Tradition, it was always the father who presided over the Passover Feast; and this Tradition has been elevated to the status of a far greater Passover Feast (the Eucharist), where the faithful are able to partake of the ONE Sacrifice of Calvary – made present in their midst.*bringyou.to/apologetics/a31.htm

Those who claim that there are no priests in the NT may know the bible they have, but they “know” the bible only through concordances, lexicons, and other such HUMAN scholarship of their choice. It’s Pelagianism. Since they think the Holy Spirit tells individuals what the scriptures mean, it’s Relativism. (Edited)

 

[Rightlydivide]

opc.org/OS/html/V1/2c.html
Not a perfect link, but not a bad one either.

 

[victus]

hey Rightlydivide,

Do you have ordained women in your protestant community that you attend?

 

[jmcrae]

I did not say the early Church believed in the Bible alone.

Then where did this belief come from, and why should anyone follow it?