Historical-Critical Critique of early Islam

[fnr]

What do you mean by “Divine Son of God”?

If you mean that soul or essence of Jesus were divine as God! What make you think in that way? Bcause He was born without a father? But that is very easy for God to create a human without father. God had created Adam without any father and mother!

We say that Jesus is true God and true man.

Or is it writen in Bible? No.

Yes, actually, it is in the Bible. John’s gospel is arguably the highest Christology – too much here to read. Just one citation is Jesus saying, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father” (Jn 14:9). That’s trinitarian theology, right in the Fourth Gospel (not another God beside the Father – no shirk). It’s also in Philippians 2, which most scholars believe to contain a pre-Pauline hymn cited by Paul. It’s also in Matthew 3 and Luke 9, where God says, “this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” I could go on.

Is it in tradition? Yes but not as initially. And there is no valid evidences if it established from reliable sources. For instance It is said that Holy Spirit guided Church! Who can prove that? We know many wrong applications of Church.

The tradition of Jesus’ divinity can, with good credibility, be established prior to the earliest written materials in the New Testament, that is, the letters of Paul. There are a number of pre-Pauline hymns and creeds that most critical scholars believe Paul to have cited in his letters (e.g., 1 Corinthians 15: 3-7, Philippians 2:5-11, 1 Corinthians 8:6). There are also traditions outside the Pauline letters that establish the divine sonship of Jesus being exceptionally early in Christian history (e.g., the stilling of the seas, Jesus forgiving sins directly).

The rest of your objections are not based on evidence we can ground. The notion that Christianity wasn’t the original beliefs of the followers of Jesus post-dates Muhammad’s supposed death by a couple of hundred years.

 

[reggieM]

Thanks for your reply, hasantas.

fnr already answered some things so I won’t repeat.

What do you mean by “Divine Son of God”?

If you mean that soul or essence of Jesus were divine as God! What make you think in that way? Bcause He was born without a father? But that is very easy for God to create a human without father. God had created Adam without any father and mother!

It’s a good point. Adam was created without a father and he was created without sin. He was immaculately conceived, in that sense (so was Eve). So, God has this power.
But, no - Jesus’ birth is not the main reason.

1. Jesus had miraculous power over nature, healing miracles, raised the dead, predicted and fulfilled his own resurrection
2. Jesus said he had the power to forgive sins
3. Jesus stated that He would judge the living and the dead at the end of time
4. He said that no one has seen the Father but Himself
5. He said that no man knows the Father but Himself
6. Jesus was seen transfigured with Moses and Elijah
7. Jesus said that we must love him more than any other human person
8. Jesus said he is the Way, the Truth and the Life
9. Jesus said you cannot have life unless you eat his Body and drink his Blood
10. Jesus said that whoever denies the Son will be condemned

There are many more reasons in the Bible.

Is it in tradition? Yes but not as initially. And there is no valid evidences if it established from reliable sources. For instance It is said that Holy Spirit guided Church! Who can prove that? We know many wrong applications of Church.

The Church gave us the New Testament. The Holy Spirit protects the Church’s sacred, official teaching. Yes, there have been many mistakes people in the Church have made, but the Church itself has preserved and always will preserve the truth needed for salvation.

There are many conflicts about God to incarnate. God create matter but God do not transform in matter. God is always out of time and space. Jesus was in time and space and Jesus had a material body. Holy Spirit is assumed to be God also. But Holy Spirit travel in space and time. Holy Spirit took form of a dove! All those conflict with divine attributions of God. etc.

The reason Catholics believe in the Trinity is that we believe that Jesus is God.
If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then yes - you would have these problems.
But why cannot God become incarnate as a human being? Actually, the very act of creating a contingent reality, bound by time, is a conflict with strict understanding of the Divine attributes that Islam uses in understanding God. Additionally, how does Allah have any kind of personality? Allah is a theistic God - so he disposes of things. This also conflicts with attributes of God known by nature (philosophically). The philosophical God of Greek philosophy (which influences Islam) is non-personal.

There is no any valid evidence for that issue. And most important is that all scriptures(Torah, Bible and Qur’an) say that God is unique and there is no partner in attributions and in personality and in propperty.

Well, Jesus addressed this in quoting the prophet David “The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand”. So, we see partnership.
In Genesis:
Then God said, Let Us make humankind in our image, according to Our likeness … 1:26
Then the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us 3:22
Come, let Us go down and confuse their language … 11:7

Those are plural references to God.

 

[hasantas]

We say that Jesus is true God and true man.

Yes, actually, it is in the Bible. John’s gospel is arguably the highest Christology – too much here to read. Just one citation is Jesus saying, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father” (Jn 14:9). That’s trinitarian theology, right in the Fourth Gospel (not another God beside the Father – no shirk). It’s also in Philippians 2, which most scholars believe to contain a pre-Pauline hymn cited by Paul. It’s also in Matthew 3 and Luke 9, where God says, “this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” I could go on.

The tradition of Jesus’ divinity can, with good credibility, be established prior to the earliest written materials in the New Testament, that is, the letters of Paul. There are a number of pre-Pauline hymns and creeds that most critical scholars believe Paul to have cited in his letters (e.g., 1 Corinthians 15: 3-7, Philippians 2:5-11, 1 Corinthians 8:6). There are also traditions outside the Pauline letters that establish the divine sonship of Jesus being exceptionally early in Christian history (e.g., the stilling of the seas, Jesus forgiving sins directly).

The rest of your objections are not based on evidence we can ground. The notion that Christianity wasn’t the original beliefs of the followers of Jesus post-dates Muhammad’s supposed death by a couple of hundred years.

“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father” (Jn 14:9) not means Jesus is God. Jesus was sent by God and was given great authority and performed many miracles. Jesus always said “Father has given me all these”. So there is no need to see Father because Jesus were there who points God. Jesus did not imply any divinity concerned with Himself.

Paul had no faith Jesus was a prophet. But later he made Jesus to be God! That is not reliable. Paul was not a prophet and was not revealed.

Prophets had acceptable request from God and Jesus was given great authority. Jesus always said that He did all these by permission/teaching/saying of Father.

 

[fnr]

“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father” (Jn 14:9) not means Jesus is God. Jesus was sent by God and was given great authority and performed many miracles. Jesus always said “Father has given me all these”. So there is no need to see Father because Jesus were there who points God. Jesus did not imply any divinity concerned with Himself.

OK, John 1:1-18. I could go on. Philippians 2: “Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness…”

It’s in Mark, it’s in Matthew, it’s in Luke.

Take the hymn quoted in Colossians 1:15-20. Here’s Hebrews 1:5-6:
For to which of the angels did God ever say: "You are my son; this day I have begotten you’? Or again: "I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me”? And again, when he leads* the first-born into the world, he says: “Let all the angels of God worship him.

Paul had no faith Jesus was a prophet. But later he made Jesus to be God! That is not reliable. Paul was not a prophet and was not revealed.

This idea, that Paul is the one who elevated Jesus to divinity, has been cited by Muslims for years. It doesn’t even match your own hadith: as narrated by Ibn Katheer, Ibn Abbas supposedly said this:
They divided into three groups. One group said, “God was among us and then ascended to heaven”. These are the Jacobites. One group said, “The son of God was among us and then God raised him to Himself”. These are the Nestorians. One group said, “A servant of god and His messenger was among us and then God raised him to Himself”. These are the Muslims.
Where’s Paul in this authentic (Saheeh) but entirely anachronistic hadith?

Even among critical historians of the New Testament period, the majority believe that Jesus’ followers believed that his followers saw him alive after they died. This is true even of Bart Ehrman, an atheist-agnostic historian. The problem with the claim that Paul “invented” the divinity of Jesus is that it simply is unsupported by any evidence whatsoever – even the supposedly-authentic hadith of Ibn Abbas.

Prophets had acceptable request from God and Jesus was given great authority. Jesus always said that He did all these by permission/teaching/saying of Father.

Agreed.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

I see Islam as I do Judaism, related to Christianity…we all believe in One God but have different ways to pray to God. It can not go w/o notice that all three religions admire David, Noah and Abraham for example.

Many Jews and Muslims have donated to Christian causes like this Muslim man who raised 5,000$ for a Catholic Church to be repaired. When I think of Islam I think of admirable Muslim like Imam Hamid Slimi.

When a Muslim leader heard that a member of his own community had vandalised a nearby church, he realised he had to act. Not just with words but with deeds.

So Hamid Slimi, imam of the Sayeda Khadija Centre in Mississauga, Canada, paid a visit to the St Catherine of Siena Roman Catholic Church where he was shocked to see the damage. Pages had been torn from the Bible, an alter had been damaged and a cross had been thrown to the floor.

Mr Slimi then returned to his mosque and organised its members to raise money to help repair the vandalism, carried out in May. In one day they managed to raise around $5,000.

independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/imam-hamid-slimi-mosque-raises-money-to-repair-catholic-church-allegedly-damaged-by-schizophrenic-10356108.html

 

[fnr]

I see Islam as I do Judaism, related to Christianity…we all believe in One God but have different ways to pray to God. It can not go w/o notice that all three religions admire David, Noah and Abraham for example.

Many Jews and Muslims have donated to Christian causes like this Muslim man who raised 5,000$ for a Catholic Church to be repaired. When I think of Islam I think of admirable Muslim like Imam Hamid Slimi.

When a Muslim leader heard that a member of his own community had vandalised a nearby church, he realised he had to act. Not just with words but with deeds.

I hope that other Christians feel as you and I do. I routinely speak out to defend Muslims against stereotypes of violence and backwardness. While I am certainly an apologist for the Catholic faith and a critic of the historical roots of Islam, the Muslims I know (including some of my close friends) are people who live their lives with integrity and dignity. Our Magesterium (and all the recent popes) confirm that Muslims worship the same God that we and Jews do. See this document for examples: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

 

[HolyCrusader007]

I hope that other Christians feel as you and I do. I routinely speak out to defend Muslims against stereotypes of violence and backwardness. While I am certainly an apologist for the Catholic faith and a critic of the historical roots of Islam, the Muslims I know (including some of my close friends) are people who live their lives with integrity and dignity. Our Magesterium (and all the recent popes) confirm that Muslims worship the same God that we and Jews do. See this document for examples: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

Yes great points and thanks. Here is a similar Catholic source on Sunni Islamic-Catholic relations

Catholics and Muslims respect one another for their faith in the One, Living, Merciful,
Omnipotent God who is Creator of heaven and earth and who has spoken to humanity through divine revelation. As people of faith who recite, pray, teach, and live according to the spiritual traditions that we have received, our mutual commitment to respect and dialogue enhances our cooperation in community projects for the common good and our service of those most at risk or in need. Muslims and Catholics agree that caring for the needy is an essential sign that a believer has heard God’s message and is acting upon it. In this atmosphere of charitable cooperation mutual respect, and learning, Catholics and Muslims can enter into a truly interreligious dialogue about various aspects of their faiths.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/upload/Mid-Atlantic-Dialogue-Marriage-Roman-Catholic-and-Sunni-Muslim-Perspectives-2011.pdf