Historical Debate

[jimmy]

mjf150:

First, let me state that this topic is very controversial, so please keep an open mind when replying. I’ll preface my statements by saying I am a lifelong, practicing Catholic. However, I don’t subscribe to the belief that “I am a Catholic, and, therefore, my beliefs are always right”. I try to keep an open mind and see things from others prospectives. I am also a student of history. History is a great teacher. Based on one of my previous post, most (if not all) people here agree that the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church. Also, I believe that most open-minded Catholics would agree that the Catholic Church has changed in many ways since its inception. From “minor” changes (bowing the head before Communion) to more “major” changes (Latin Masses, not having the Sacristine in public view, Fasting rules, etc.). As a student of history, I’ve come to believe that just because someone did it first, does not mean that they are always right. What I am getting at is maybe our Christian brothers and sisters split with the Catholic Church, not because they wanted a change, but instead because the Catholic Church changed. As an example, the Jewish people were/are God’s chosen people. However, about 2,000 years ago God sent His only Son. Some Jews believed in Him, many did not. Those who did splinter off from the Jewish faith became the first branch of Christians. Why? Because they believed that the rest of God’s chosen people were wrong - we changed. Took a different road, so to speak. Likewise, it is possible that the same thing happen within Christianity and the Catholic faith later in history. People (protestants) believed we were going down the wrong path and tried to correct it and when the Church refused, they in turn took a different road. Again, please keep an open mind; after all we are all Christians.

There is a big difference between the start of Christianity and the start of all subsequent groups of Christianity. The beginning of Christianity was initiated by Christ, whom we all as Christians think is God. The subsequent branches were initiated by men who had no authority to make the breaks they did. Martin Luther was not God and did not have the authority to break from the Catholic Church, neither did any of the others.

 

[jimmy]

I would like to say another thing. Christ set up the Church as the teaching authority, not the people. It is the responsibility of the heirarchy to decide whether the Church is headed in the wrong direction. Not the responsibility of you or me or any other lay person. This can be seen in both the bible and in the Church Fathers.

It is permitted for the Church to change a practice like bowing before the Eucharist, or to change the mass, but it is not ok to change doctrine. The Church has never changed doctrine in all of its history. They may have expanded a doctrine, but that is a little different.

 

[Matt16_18]

Why would God found a church and make it necessary for our salvation if were even possible that his church could begin to teach erroneously in matters of faith and morals?

Jesus died to free us from the bondage of sin. If we have no way of knowing that Christ’s church knows what she is talking about when she declares an action to be sinful, then Jesus died in vain. We may have a general agreement that sin is to be avoided based on our faulty knowledge of natural law, but if we cannot know for sure what sin is, then we are better off without a church that could be teaching us error. A church that teaches moral error is worse than useless - it is a tool of Satan.

Believing that God would allow the church that he founded to be a tool of Satan is a highly illogical thing to believe. If God has the omnipotence to create the universe out of nothing, he certainly has the omnipotence to keep his church from teaching false doctrine.

 

[Lorarose]

It was never taught that the Church would remain exactly the same throughout the ages was it?
Isn’t that called stagnation?
Jesus described the kingdom of God as a mustard seed. The Church introduces the kingdom of God to our earth. The mustard seed grows and forms branches and leaves - but it is from the same seed.

Regarding Christianity splitting from Judaism?
It wasn’t like a bunch of christians decided they were going to form their own faith. This change was initiated by God Himself.
Christianity FULFILLS Judaism!

I do not see the correlation with churches splitting from the Church Jesus chose to leave on earth for us.
These splits were not initiated by Christ, they were initiated by men.