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tobinatorstark
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Yes and we have all the proof we need. In Leela’s case she like every other person that has denied Christ can’t prove that he didn’t exist
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Leela
Guest
Yes, I think he probably did. I just don’t think we can know much about him based on historical evidence.
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Leela
Guest
An insult? Is it an insult to Muslims for you to not believe that Muhammed flew to heaven on a winged horse? Is it an insult to Mormons that you don’t think Joseph Smith found any magic plates? If so, that is the exact sort of thinking that has people around the world killing one another over their religious beliefs.
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tobinatorstark
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Muhammed was false prophet and did not fly to heaven on a winged horse. Mormons are also false and Joseph didn’t find any magic plates. Magic plates don’t exist. You have no concept of what religion is do you??? I can tell you what I believe
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipoténtem, Factórem cæli et terræ, Visibílium ómnium et invisibílium. Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum, Fílium Dei Unigénitum, Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula. Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero, Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri
er quem ómnia facta sunt.Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem Descéndit de cælis.Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est. Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto; Passus, et sepúltus est, Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras, Et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris. Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória, Iudicáre vivos et mórtuos, Cuius regni non erit finis. Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem: Qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:Qui locútus est per prophétas.Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam. Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, Et vitam ventúri sæculi. AmenBTW Atheism is a false religion in itself
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Cachonga
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There is still the problem of converts (most notably, Saul of Tarsus). What was it about this new religion (or sect, as the Jewish leaders called it) that could persuade people to follow and believe in someone, even at the cost of their freedom, possessions, and very lives? What is it that could persuade a religious zealot like Saul of Tarsus, who was doing great things within his own religious “order” to change sides? What is it about Christianity that could persuade people from every walk of life to confess Jesus Christ as Lord, even if it meant a horrible death (by sword, crucifixion, fire, or being the main course for the lions in the Coliseum)? What was it about Christianity that “turned the world upside down” (Acts 17:6)? Remember, at the time the New Testament was being written, there were still many people around who witnessed Jesus in the flesh before and after his resurrection. How do you account for these things?
As for the manuscript tradition, which manuscripts are you looking at? What evidence do you have of ANY “story” evolving from the earliest manuscripts up to today? I would strongly urge you to get a copy of the White/Ehrman debate on “Did the Bible misquote Jesus” (found here). This debate occurred in January of this year.Dr. White recently did a debate with Dan Barker, and that should be available soon, as well.
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CHRISTINE77
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These are excellent questions!
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Mark77
Guest
Why is historical evidence so important to you?
Historical evidence is written by men and rewritten by those who conquered the previous men…
**Listen to your heart, Jesus loves you, Jesus died for your sins and Jesus is waiting for you!!! Open up your heart to His Love and you will be set free!!!
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You are on this site so you are seeking the Truth of Jesus! Open your heart to Him and He will save you and bring you to heaven for all eternity with Him!
The Word is eternal the Word is truth, the Word is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior!
Just because you don’t believe in Jesus doesn’t make Him false, it just makes your beliefs false!
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
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Leela
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This is like asking, what is it about any religion that makes people want to believe it. I’m sure people have had much the same reasons for believing the story of Jesus as they have for Muhammad or Joseph Smith or the Buddha. And you already think that none of those reasons that people have for believing in those religions say anything about it being historically true. As for people being willing to die for their beliefs, do the 9/11 hijackers lend any credibility to Islam? The fact that some people are so convinced of a religion that they are willing to die for their beliefs has nothing to do with whether or not their beliefs are true.
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Leela
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This thread is concerned with historical evidence. I’m just trying to be helpful by answering the question in the OP.
I’m not here because I’m seeking Jesus. I’m here because I’m concerned about the negative impact of dogmatic faith on the world.
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Cachonga
Guest
The fact that there are people today willing to die for a religion that has been around for a few centuries doesn’t impress me, especially if they were raised in that particular religion (remember, it was easy for the Japanese to recruit Kamikaze pilots during WWII for their emperor/god). Now, if someone like Billy Graham were to strap a bomb to himself, hijack a plane and fly it into the Vatican, all the while yelling “Allah Akbar”, then I would think there could be something in Islam worth investigating. Let’s go back and look at what was happening in the early church – Saul of Tarsus was a very well educated Israelite (of the tribe of Benjamin), and had been trained under Gameliel (not sure about the spelling). He was zealous for God according to his religious beliefs, and was very likely on his way to becoming a member of the Sanhedrin. He was persecuting anyone he could find that believed in Jesus as messiah, and even got papers from the High Priest allowing him to pursue these people into Samaria. While on the way to Damascus, he had an encounter with God, and afterward was just as committed (if not more so) to the cause he had so vigorously tried to exterminate. He maintained this devotion without compromise, even when it could have made his life (and the lives of other believers) easier.
Now, let’s look at the early converts to Islam. Undoubtedly, there were some who converted because they believed the message, but who was doing the persecuting? It was the folks who followed and accepted Mohammed as a prophet.
Why is it important to look at what happened in the early days? Because legends develop over time (which is why radicals today do not necessarily reflect the truth or legitimacy of religious claims today). However, when a religious movement first begins, it’s not so easy to convince someone to give their lives to a cause, especially if it can be proven by living eye-witnesses that the teachings are false. There will no doubt be claims that the Jewish leaders couldn’t produce the body of Jesus to prove he hadn’t risen from the dead because his disciples had stolen him from the grave. However, there is still the matter of the Roman guards who had been placed to watch over the tomb (being asleep on duty was punishable by death). More importantly, the very disciples who would have stolen his body were willing to give their lives affirming that he had, indeed, risen. Considering what these men went through, it doesn’t seem very likely that they would willingly give their lives for what they would have known was a lie (maybe some of them would have, but ALL of them? I think not!).
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LionHeart777
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She will then have to throw out much of what she already then accepts (probably ) as history.
There are pagan sources too. I will try and dig them up later. The protestant apologist Josh McDowell has a book called “New Evidence That Demands a Verdict” (If I’m not mistaken.) It has the references to extra Biblical sources. I will link you to another post I did a while back on another forum. See next post:thumbsup:
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LionHeart777
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“…There are extrabiblical sources for Jesus dating back to the 1st century from pagan writers such as Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Seutonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Phlegon, and Mara Bar-Serapion. For Jewish sources we have the Babylonian Talmud and the writings of Josephus who was born in the first century. Not to mention that the earliest fragments that we have for the NT date back to around 114 A.D. (McDowell pp 119-126, 38.)…”
“…1. Josh McDowell, “The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict.” Thomas Nelson Publishers and Here’s Life Publishers, Inc 1972,1975,1979,1981 Campus Crusade For Christ…”
gospelreggae.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4223
I had this conversation at the link w/ a Rastafarian back when I was a protestant
A lot of my Theology on that forum i need to recant (eternal security is one example/there are more), I just am not so solid as where I am these days. Still searching.
“…1. Josh McDowell, “The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict.” Thomas Nelson Publishers and Here’s Life Publishers, Inc 1972,1975,1979,1981 Campus Crusade For Christ…”
gospelreggae.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4223
I had this conversation at the link w/ a Rastafarian back when I was a protestant
A lot of my Theology on that forum i need to recant (eternal security is one example/there are more), I just am not so solid as where I am these days. Still searching.
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LionHeart777
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Obviously, my opinions about Church history and my feelings towards Rome are not the same. I am trying to open myself up to the truth about what The Church that Jesus founded is. I suspect that it’s the Cactholic Church, but am still not quite there.
sorry I had to explain all that, if you check my posts on here they will reflect a different perspective on specific things.
sorry I had to explain all that, if you check my posts on here they will reflect a different perspective on specific things.
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