Historical questions based on another thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter momstheword
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

momstheword

Guest
Okay, now I think I’m in trouble. In the earlier thread on the historicity of the CC there are a few posts about the papacy (in particular) being a developed doctrine and not something necessarily recorded or believed, as we believe it now, by the early Christians.
I’m in a heap of trouble if I cannot support the papacy, so if someone can help me connect-the-dots as to why the “development” of the doctrine of infallibility is correct doctrine (which, BTW, I wholeheartedly believe it is) I would be grateful. Even examples of development of other doctrines that protestants accept might help diffuse any attacks on the papacy being an invention.
 
Here is something for a historical perspective:

catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp
catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.asp

opps. Guess the early Christians did beleive in the Infall. of the Pope.

scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-I

And wow, Peter was the Rock that the Church was built on.

scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-II

And the Bible says he has authority.

scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-III

And it all continued to his successors. The bible also says a nice bit on the subject.

I typed some of this up (using the KJV), if someday I could actually figure how to connect this to my post I will attach i.t. Well, till then I hope this helps. Good luck.
May God help you. Amen
 
moms << In the earlier thread on the historicity of the CC there are a few posts about the papacy (in particular) being a developed doctrine and not something necessarily recorded or believed, as we believe it now, by the early Christians. >>

All of Christianity is a development: the canon, what we believe about Jesus, the Trinity, the sacraments, the Papacy, the Marian doctrines. For the papacy in particular:

Orthodoxy and the Primacy of Rome

And when I can finish up the HTML sometime, Luke Rivington’s 1894 book is great. I’ll work on trying to clean this up in HTML format since I got some requests. Right now it is complete in PDF format only. He covers St. Clement of Rome through the Council of Chalcedon in 450 A.D.

The Primitive Church and the See of Peter

Phil P
 
Okay, now I think I’m in trouble. In the earlier thread on the historicity of the CC there are a few posts about the papacy (in particular) being a developed doctrine and not something necessarily recorded or believed, as we believe it now, by the early Christians.
I’m in a heap of trouble if I cannot support the papacy, so if someone can help me connect-the-dots as to why the “development” of the doctrine of infallibility is correct doctrine (which, BTW, I wholeheartedly believe it is) I would be grateful. Even examples of development of other doctrines that protestants accept might help diffuse any attacks on the papacy being an invention.
A good friend of mine was a highschool quarterback. One time he called the next play in the huddle and upon receiving the hiked ball he moved to the right just as the play called for, then noticed that the REST team was surging to the left. After extracting his face from the turf he angrily returned to the huddle and began to chide his team mates for going the wrong way. That’s when on sarcastic lineman spoke up and said, “Riiiggghht Kevin, the rest of us went the wrong way…you’re the ONLY one who got the play right.”

I know I won’t win any friends here but I said that to say this.

Four of the five patriarchates have always taught that the claims of papal infallability and supremacy of jurisdiction are misguided.

Now I’ll head for cover before the hail of bullets start flying:p

Peace,
+Nathan
 
Okay, now I think I’m in trouble. In the earlier thread on the historicity of the CC there are a few posts about the papacy (in particular) being a developed doctrine and not something necessarily recorded or believed, as we believe it now, by the early Christians.
I’m in a heap of trouble if I cannot support the papacy, so if someone can help me connect-the-dots as to why the “development” of the doctrine of infallibility is correct doctrine (which, BTW, I wholeheartedly believe it is) I would be grateful. Even examples of development of other doctrines that protestants accept might help diffuse any attacks on the papacy being an invention.
First of all, just because we don’t understand sometime at a particular point in time does not make it untrue. Understanding doesn’t equal truth. For instance, the Trinity. The Jews spent hundreds of years with only a knowledge of God the Father. The other two persons of the Trinity were revealed only when Jesus came. Does that mean that all that time before they didn’t exist? No, God has always been a Trinity, he just didn’t tell us that right away. Furthermore, even after Jesus came and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit were revealed, it still took centuries come to the correct understanding of the Trinity. Heresies such as Arianism used Scripture to back up their flawed understanding of God. But just because the Trinity wasn’t formally defined until the 4th century doesn’t mean the Trinity didn’t exist before that or that no Christians believed in it til them.

Many early Christian writers refer to the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome. Lists of the Popes can be found in their writings. They may not have understood “infallibility” as we understand it today but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t true. Just because men don’t recognize something doesn’t make it untrue. Honestly, “infallibility” is a hard concept to understand. Think how many protestants confuse it with “impeccability” or “inerrancy”. In the very early ages of the Church, the Bishops of Rome may not have exercised the role they do now, because it wasn’t as necessary then. The Church was smaller, more unified. During the early times when persecution was rampant there wasn’t time for heresy. Christians were too busy running for their lives to argue. After the legalization of Christianity, when Arianism and other heresies sprang up you find that the Popes are more active. Any history of Catholicism will be centered around the actions of the Popes.
 
Okay, now I think I’m in trouble. In the earlier thread on the historicity of the CC there are a few posts about the papacy (in particular) being a developed doctrine and not something necessarily recorded or believed, as we believe it now, by the early Christians.
I’m in a heap of trouble if I cannot support the papacy, so if someone can help me connect-the-dots as to why the “development” of the doctrine of infallibility is correct doctrine (which, BTW, I wholeheartedly believe it is) I would be grateful. Even examples of development of other doctrines that protestants accept might help diffuse any attacks on the papacy being an invention.
Get the book Upon This Rock by Stephen Ray. It is exhaustive in its scholarly footnotes and references.
 
Okay, now I think I’m in trouble. In the earlier thread on the historicity of the CC there are a few posts about the papacy (in particular) being a developed doctrine and not something necessarily recorded or believed, as we believe it now, by the early Christians.
I’m in a heap of trouble if I cannot support the papacy, so if someone can help me connect-the-dots as to why the “development” of the doctrine of infallibility is correct doctrine (which, BTW, I wholeheartedly believe it is) I would be grateful. Even examples of development of other doctrines that protestants accept might help diffuse any attacks on the papacy being an invention.
Doctrine develops because new questions arise. For instance, for hundreds of years, probably no-one considered to baptise dead people, except maybe in the case of infants who die a few minutes before the priest reaches them. However now Mormons trace back ancestors from long ago, and baptise them. So Catholics are forced to answer, “Why do we reject this practise? What does it mean for our understanding of baptism?”

Similarly, if it is accepted that there is one Church and there’s a man currently in charge, you don’t need a very sophisticated theolology of Papal authority. When people start making plausible claims to be the real Pope, or to be Christians but not under his authority, then you need to firm up your ideas about exactly what it means to be a Pope.
 
May I suggest you study the development of the Trinity doctrine. Most of us protestants believe in the trinity.
 
Okay, now I think I’m in trouble. In the earlier thread on the historicity of the CC there are a few posts about the papacy (in particular) being a developed doctrine and not something necessarily recorded or believed, as we believe it now, by the early Christians.
I’m in a heap of trouble if I cannot support the papacy, so if someone can help me connect-the-dots as to why the “development” of the doctrine of infallibility is correct doctrine (which, BTW, I wholeheartedly believe it is) I would be grateful. Even examples of development of other doctrines that protestants accept might help diffuse any attacks on the papacy being an invention.
First, the fact that a doctrine develops over time holds no bearing upon its truth. Part of the basis of Catholicism is “This must be true because we have always believed it, and God would not have allowed us to remain in error”. Obviously, that could not be said at the beginning of the Church, because there had not yet been an ‘always’.

As regards Protestant-accepted doctrines, there might be a problem: one of the fundamental tenets of Protestantism is that any doctrine which is not explicit in the Bible is a doctrine which may be considered but cannot be trusted. I.e., anything which developed later, such as the celibacy of the priesthood, will always be regarded with deep suspicion.

Regarding the papacy, the issue is not whether it existed, but what its role was, and particularly what its influence was outside of Rome. There were five patriarchs: in Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. These cities were the centres of administrative secular power, locations of apostolic martyrdoms, and long-established churches. Each of these metropolitan (‘mother city’) churches had authority over the churches around it, but not over the churches under another patriarch.

All too often, Catholic apologists confuse the acknowledged Primacy of the See of Peter, i.e., Rome’s status as “first among equals” of the five patriarchates, with a claimed supremacy of the See of Peter. They quote comments from early Church Fathers about the significance of Rome, but read supremacy where only primacy exists: note especially the fact that, in the writings of non-Latin Fathers, the references are to Rome being “first in love”, “first in honour”, etc, not “first in power”. As is clearly shown in the edicts and letters of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, the Greek-speaking churches did not accept any Roman claim to power over them. In fact, they believed that it was the Councils whose word was to be obeyed, not any patriarch’s.

(I think that I might do a post on those Councils and the relevant portions, because those texts are quite long, and people seem to keep missing that important point.)

However, returning to the role of the papacy, it was ultimately the idea of the Supremacy of Rome upon which the unity of the Church was shattered. When the Latin churches inserted one word, “filioque”, into the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, in order to prevent a heresy which was growing in Spain, the Greeks became upset.

From the Greek perspective, the Creed was sacrosanct: no one below an Ecumenical Council (and all five patriarchs were below them) should ever contemplate altering it. To do so was regarded as heresy :eek:. Unfortunately, political manoeuvring on both sides blew the issue up into a prideful contest of wills, and a challenge of authorities. When the Greeks saw the Bishop of Rome as claiming sovereign authority over all of Christendom, they vehemently rejected the claim, and the Church separated into those churches which did follow Rome, and those which did not.

It was, I think, one of the saddest moments in Church history. 😦
 
First, the fact that a doctrine develops over time holds no bearing upon its truth. Part of the basis of Catholicism is “This must be true because we have always believed it, and God would not have allowed us to remain in error”. Obviously, that could not be said at the beginning of the Church, because there had not yet been an ‘always’.

As regards Protestant-accepted doctrines, there might be a problem: one of the fundamental tenets of Protestantism is that any doctrine which is not explicit in the Bible is a doctrine which may be considered but cannot be trusted. I.e., anything which developed later, such as the celibacy of the priesthood, will always be regarded with deep suspicion.

Regarding the papacy, the issue is not whether it existed, but what its role was, and particularly what its influence was outside of Rome. There were five patriarchs: in Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. These cities were the centres of administrative secular power, locations of apostolic martyrdoms, and long-established churches. Each of these metropolitan (‘mother city’) churches had authority over the churches around it, but not over the churches under another patriarch.

All too often, Catholic apologists confuse the acknowledged Primacy of the See of Peter, i.e., Rome’s status as “first among equals” of the five patriarchates, with a claimed supremacy of the See of Peter. They quote comments from early Church Fathers about the significance of Rome, but read supremacy where only primacy exists: note especially the fact that, in the writings of non-Latin Fathers, the references are to Rome being “first in love”, “first in honour”, etc, not “first in power”. As is clearly shown in the edicts and letters of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, the Greek-speaking churches did not accept any Roman claim to power over them. In fact, they believed that it was the Councils whose word was to be obeyed, not any patriarch’s.

(I think that I might do a post on those Councils and the relevant portions, because those texts are quite long, and people seem to keep missing that important point.)

However, returning to the role of the papacy, it was ultimately the idea of the Supremacy of Rome upon which the unity of the Church was shattered. When the Latin churches inserted one word, “filioque”, into the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, in order to prevent a heresy which was growing in Spain, the Greeks became upset.

From the Greek perspective, the Creed was sacrosanct: no one below an Ecumenical Council (and all five patriarchs were below them) should ever contemplate altering it. To do so was regarded as heresy :eek:. Unfortunately, political manoeuvring on both sides blew the issue up into a prideful contest of wills, and a challenge of authorities. When the Greeks saw the Bishop of Rome as claiming sovereign authority over all of Christendom, they vehemently rejected the claim, and the Church separated into those churches which did follow Rome, and those which did not.

It was, I think, one of the saddest moments in Church history. 😦
This is a great help for me. So then, how does “primacy” translate into the infallibility? Did the other four patriarchs know that they had to be in union with Rome in order to define dogmas? OR could the other four do so as long as Rome didn’t oppose them?
Does the magesterium ever promulgate a teaching without the pope?
This is a complicated matter for me to explain, although I accept it entirely.
 
This is a great help for me. So then, how does “primacy” translate into the infallibility? Did the other four patriarchs know that they had to be in union with Rome in order to define dogmas? OR could the other four do so as long as Rome didn’t oppose them?
Does the magesterium ever promulgate a teaching without the pope?
This is a complicated matter for me to explain, although I accept it entirely.
I have that thread up on ‘Rome in the early Church’:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=113909

The doctrine of Ecclesiastical Infallibility is what the early Church believed about the Ecumenical Councils: when they spoke in unity, they spoke Truth. It was not that the other four had to be unity with Rome to define dogma, but that all had to be unity: if Rome decided something different, e.g., the filioque, Rome was deemed to be in error because it was not in unity with them. Thus, when the other churches met at Chalcedon in 380-1, and made their definitions there, the bishop of Rome was faced with two choices: accept what they said, or risk a breach in the Church. At that point, it seems that the bishop of Rome relied upon the Scriptures and the Fathers: he could ratify a definition which was in accordance with them.

I am not sure how the Magesterium of the Catholic Church could promulgate a teaching without the Pope, unless they were in conflict. At that point, the Papal Infallibility would win out.

For that last doctrine you should read this.
 
First of all, just because we don’t understand sometime at a particular point in time does not make it untrue. Understanding doesn’t equal truth. For instance, the Trinity. The Jews spent hundreds of years with only a knowledge of God the Father. The other two persons of the Trinity were revealed only when Jesus came. Does that mean that all that time before they didn’t exist? No, God has always been a Trinity, he just didn’t tell us that right away. Furthermore, even after Jesus came and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit were revealed, it still took centuries come to the correct understanding of the Trinity. Heresies such as Arianism used Scripture to back up their flawed understanding of God. But just because the Trinity wasn’t formally defined until the 4th century doesn’t mean the Trinity didn’t exist before that or that no Christians believed in it til them.

Many early Christian writers refer to the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome. Lists of the Popes can be found in their writings. They may not have understood “infallibility” as we understand it today but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t true. Just because men don’t recognize something doesn’t make it untrue. Honestly, “infallibility” is a hard concept to understand. Think how many protestants confuse it with “impeccability” or “inerrancy”. In the very early ages of the Church, the Bishops of Rome may not have exercised the role they do now, because it wasn’t as necessary then. The Church was smaller, more unified. During the early times when persecution was rampant there wasn’t time for heresy. Christians were too busy running for their lives to argue. After the legalization of Christianity, when Arianism and other heresies sprang up you find that the Popes are more active. Any history of Catholicism will be centered around the actions of the Popes.
Great explanation, and besides that , we have Jesus own words giving Peter the power to govern, teach and Sanctify, when he gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Gave him the power to loose and bind, and promised that the Holy Spirit would be with HIS Church till the end of time and that the Gates of Hell would never prevail against HIS Church.
Many “know” the difference between “Infallibility” and impeccability, but they still deliberately “confuse” the two. All they need is a dictionary.
 
Okay, now I think I’m in trouble. In the earlier thread on the historicity of the CC there are a few posts about the papacy (in particular) being a developed doctrine and not something necessarily recorded or believed, as we believe it now, by the early Christians.
I’m in a heap of trouble if I cannot support the papacy, so if someone can help me connect-the-dots as to why the “development” of the doctrine of infallibility is correct doctrine (which, BTW, I wholeheartedly believe it is) I would be grateful. Even examples of development of other doctrines that protestants accept might help diffuse any attacks on the papacy being an invention.
Newman’s “Essay on Development” is helpful. While it obviously didn’t quite convert me, it did make me very slow to join in the standard Anglican jibes about the Papacy and other distinctive “Roman” Catholic doctrines being innovations.

Edwin
 
Here is something for a historical perspective:

catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp
catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.asp

opps. Guess the early Christians did beleive in the Infall. of the Pope.

scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-I

And wow, Peter was the Rock that the Church was built on.

scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-II

And the Bible says he has authority.

scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-III

And it all continued to his successors. The bible also says a nice bit on the subject.

I typed some of this up (using the KJV), if someday I could actually figure how to connect this to my post I will attach i.t. Well, till then I hope this helps. Good luck.
May God help you. Amen
I do hope you all take time to read these as they will give you the best understanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church and why we say it is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ. You will at least have a better understanding of what we believe and why. God Bless.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top